Bobbi Brown had a revolutionary idea: to create a natural-look makeup line that would make people feel like the best version of themselves. She launched it from her home to overnight success, and today is back with her blockbuster clean DTC brand, Jones Road.
Transcript
Debbie Millman:
Bobbi Brown created her eponymous line in the early ’90s, and then sold it to the Estee Lauder company in 1995. After 25 years heading the brand, Bobbi has moved on. In that time, she’s written nine bestselling books. She’s consulted with TV shows. She’s recently become a health coach. She’s bought and refurbished a hotel. And yes, she recently started another company and a new beauty brand. She joins me today to talk about the evolution of her remarkable groundbreaking career and her new line of cosmetics. Bobbi Brown, welcome to Design Matters.
Bobbi Brown:
Oh, thank you so much. And it’s a pleasure talking to you, you have such a calming voice.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, thank you.
Bobbi Brown:
Yeah, so just saying that, so I’m happy to talk to you.
Debbie Millman:
Bobbi, is it true that your ring tone is “I Can’t Get No Satisfaction”?
Bobbi Brown:
It’s one of the five, and yes, that is one of them.
Debbie Millman:
Wait a minute, so who is “I Can’t Get No Satisfaction” appointed to, and what are the other four?
Bobbi Brown:
Right now, I actually have “Happy” by Pharrell, and I definitely have some Biggie, because I love rap. Just when I get bored, I change it. I’m also this weird girl that changes my covers on my iPhone because I get bored. So maybe because I didn’t have daughters, so I couldn’t buy these different outfits, I changed my iPhone.
Debbie Millman:
Now, I know you’ve worked with the Rolling Stones before—did they ever hear your phone go off?
Bobbi Brown:
I don’t think they did. I’ve done their makeup for album covers. And I had this out-of-body experience a bunch of years later, where I was doing the fashion show of then–Mick Jagger’s girlfriend, L’Wren Scott, and was invited over to their home for dinner. And that was an out-of-body experience, having spent an evening at Mick’s house with six people. That was pretty cool.
Debbie Millman:
And what a loss for the world, to lose L’Wren.
Bobbi Brown:
She was unbelievable. A dear friend, and the tallest woman I’ve ever been with, and I am five feet tall.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, did you get a good picture? Because I know you like to do that—
Bobbi Brown:
Oh, I did. We always said together, we were the perfect 10. She was the one and I was the zero. We were the perfect 10.
Debbie Millman:
Bobbi, you grew up in the suburbs of Chicago. You said that your mother, your Aunt Alice, and the actress Allie MacGraw were your role models. Why Allie MacGraw?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, different role models for different things. I mean, my mother is responsible for me falling in love with makeup and following it as a career. She always encouraged me. My Aunt Alice is the woman that has taught me the most about life, about how to be grounded, about what’s important and how not to sweat the small stuff. And Allie MacGraw, when I saw Love Story, I was in middle school, and at a time in my life where I didn’t feel enough—pretty enough, cute enough. And I saw Allie MacGraw with her natural hair and hardly any makeup, and it’s the first time I said, “you know what, I could be pretty too.” So there are different reasons.
Debbie Millman:
You’ve written about how your mother was an extraordinarily glamorous woman, and you loved watching her apply white eyeshadow and black liner in her blue gilded bathroom. What enthralled you so much about makeup at that time in your life?
Bobbi Brown:
I’m not sure. I mean, I was not a student, so reading and studying were not my passions in life. So I just always loved, not glamor, I didn’t love glamor, but I just loved ways to better yourself. Whether it’s through diet, even back then, or certainly with makeup, but I used to watch my mom. And it was the ’70s, and so my mother was 20 when I was born. So she was always 20 years older than me. So when I was 10, she was 30 and still incredibly glamorous. And she pretty much channeled anyone from Cher to Jackie Kennedy. She just always had this amazing beauty and perfection about her, and I could never compete with that. So I never tried; I always felt so silly when I would do my makeup like she did. So I did it my way.
Debbie Millman:
You know, Bobbi, I don’t want to be pandering. I have been accused at the, certainly in the early years of this podcast, of fawning over my guests. But I do have to say, you’re really beautiful. I don’t know where you come up, you know, this like zero, and that you thought you could be pretty. You are really a beautiful woman. I don’t know where that’s coming from.
Bobbi Brown:
Well, thank you. But I’m realistic and I kind of have a sense of humor about it. And coming from the suburbs of Chicago, I wasn’t like my friends that were the cheerleaders. I wasn’t like my friends that were the student council. I was in the popular group, but I couldn’t really figure out where I belonged. I was kind of, and I still am, a chameleon. I would go with one group and I’d fit in, then I’d go with another group. I’ve always been a sponge, which has served me well in my adult life. But when you’re growing up, you get insecure. And I was the shortest one. I’ve always had to watch every morsel in my mouth, or I could definitely be a very heavy girl at five-foot tall.
Debbie Millman:
So, we are contemporaries—we grew up at exactly the same time. Our mothers are also 20 years older than both of us. So I have to ask, was there ever a time when you wore green eyeshadow?
Bobbi Brown:
I never wore green eyeshadow, but I did wear lavender and a little bit of pale blue. Because I remember on the bus, I would bring this Yardley palette I had and just put a very small amount close to my lashes. I guess my mother didn’t want me to wear makeup at school, so I did it on the bus.
Debbie Millman:
I also was not allowed to wear makeup, but I was so desperate, I also brought makeup and nail polish to school. And I put on the nail polish in the morning and took it off before I went home. But I wore red, so it was really hard to get it out of the cuticles. How did you wear your hair back in the ’70s?
Bobbi Brown:
Oh, I have been wearing my hair the exact same way: parted in the middle, dark, long and whether that’s Allie MacGraw, I mean—
Debbie Millman:
I was going to say Allie MacGraw, for sure.
Bobbi Brown:
I still do that. People always say, “Where do you part your hair?” I’m like, “In the middle.” And my hair, which looks dark now, is actually 100% white. I always thought, when I maybe turn 60 … now that I’m 64, I’m like 70, I’m like, no. Maybe at 80, I’ll let it go. But right now, I like coloring it.
Debbie Millman:
So as soon as you were old enough, you got your introduction to formal training at your local small cosmetic store.
Bobbi Brown:
Well, no, not formal training. It was almost like a job interview at the local makeup store. It was a friend of my mother’s. I didn’t actually work there, because my experience at this store was, I went in and she said, “I’m going to teach you everything I know. I’m going to show you how to do makeup.” And she started with taking everything off. And she said, “Well, your skin is really yellow, so let me make it pink. And by the way, your nose is too big, so I’m going to show you how to contour it. And your lips are too small, let me show you how you can make them bigger. And your eyes are very beady or small, let me make those bigger.” By the time I was done, she made me feel like I was the ugliest person. And I looked in the mirror. And I just said, “Oh my God, I look terrible.”
Bobbi Brown:
I went home, I didn’t cry. I washed my face and I said, “I look much better.” And I never wanted to work there. But I did see this woman, her name was Elaine, about 20 years ago, and she said, “I am responsible for your success.” And I said, “Yes, you are part of it. That is true.”
Debbie Millman:
But not for the reason you think.
Bobbi Brown:
Yeah, exactly.
Debbie Millman:
At that point in your life, what did you think you wanted to do professionally?
Bobbi Brown:
I didn’t know. I mean, I was still in high school. So I was more concerned with hanging with my friends. And even when it was time to go to college, I didn’t go look at colleges, I followed a boyfriend to University of Wisconsin at Oshkosh. I graduated high school early, not because I had great grades, but because I just did my homework to be done, so I could do something else. So I went there for six months. And then I went to University of Arizona. I was there for a year, and I came home and said, “Mom, school is so boring, I want to drop out.” And she said, “You can’t drop out.” And she said, “What do you want to do?” And I said, “I have no idea.” She said, “Pretend today’s your birthday and you could do anything you want. What would you want to do?”
Bobbi Brown:
I could have said, go to Paris. I could have said, go clothes shopping. I said, “I want to go to Marshall Field’s, the department store, and play with makeup.” And she said, “Why don’t you be a makeup artist?” I said, “I don’t want to go to beauty school.” She said, “I’m sure there’s a college somewhere.” And I found Emerson College in Boston, and that changed my life.
Debbie Millman:
A friend of your father’s first told you about Emerson College, and you were ultimately able to create your own major in theatrical makeup. But you’ve said that the reason that you went, the real reason you went to Emerson, was because of the Magic Pan cafe.
Bobbi Brown:
Yes, yes.
Debbie Millman:
Tell us that story.
Bobbi Brown:
As a kid growing up in the suburbs of Chicago, we didn’t have a lot of outdoor restaurants back then. I flew up to Boston. It was very magical. Boston looks like Europe. And there was this Magic Pan cafe with umbrellas outside, and I literally flew up two days before Emerson started. And I walked into the office and basically anything I said I wanted to do, they said, “You could do it here, sure.” I said, “OK.” And I created my own major. And I realized, that was the start of me learning how to be an entrepreneur.
Debbie Millman:
You said that when you found Emerson, you found yourself.
Bobbi Brown:
Yes.
Debbie Millman:
In what way?
Bobbi Brown:
Because it was the first time I was with people that were just like me. I always felt I wasn’t as smart as my other friends, I wasn’t as smart as the other kids in some of my classes. And I wasn’t interested in traditional education, which I didn’t realize at the time, is because I am a visual creative person. But when I went to Emerson, there was a bunch of “goofballs” like myself that were creative and passionate and fiery. And not afraid to try things, and just jumped into all these new experiences. Like filmmaking and public speaking and whatever else there was. And I was studying makeup. And I did makeup for all the different things at school. It was just a really, really amazing experience for me.
Debbie Millman:
When did you go from more theatrical makeup to fashion makeup?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, in college, my degree was in theatrical makeup, because it wasn’t a fashion school. I didn’t even think of it back then, because I really only assumed that being a makeup artist meant you worked in TV and movies. I didn’t understand that there was other things. So I studied theatrical makeup. I did one film, right after I graduated. It was torture for me. It was so boring, being a makeup artist sitting on the set, and just waiting for your turn to fix and touch up and continuity. And I learned, when I picked up a magazine once and read a story about a freelance makeup artist who was doing makeup for Fashion Week and ads, and she just sounded like this amazing career.
Bobbi Brown:
And so I wrote to her and said, “can I come and assist you for free?” She never wrote me back. But when I came to New York, I called her, she never called me back. On her answering machine, it said, call her agent, which I did. And he said, come see me. And he didn’t represent me, but at least he told me the steps I needed to take to become a makeup artist in the fashion world. So I did.
Debbie Millman:
You said that at this point in your life, one of the best things you had going for you was that you were naive. And in retrospect, you felt that you couldn’t believe that you had the guts to show your amateur portfolio of makeup work from college, in which half of the models were yourself.
Bobbi Brown:
Right, well, yeah.
Debbie Millman:
I’m just wondering, do you really think it was naivete? I think it’s also kind of courageous.
Bobbi Brown:
Well, I think you could look at it both ways. I mean, yes, I’ve always been courageous, not afraid that someone’s going to say something. But I’m naive thinking that they might not like this, or naive that, oh, you don’t just do this. I’m not afraid to ask anyone any question; I never have been. I’ve never thought of, oh, what could happen? So it is being naive. And it’s kind of a good quality. I didn’t realize it. And yes, it’s courageous, because I’m not afraid of them saying “no.” I think I’m someone that sees opportunity when other people see roadblocks.
Debbie Millman:
What are you afraid of?
Bobbi Brown:
I’m afraid of safety, health and wellness for the people I love. I’m very nurturing and I happen to have this amazing career, but I’ve literally put most of my time and energy and emotions into my family. Right now, I am literally one week away from my first kid’s wedding. Honestly, I’ve been just sitting there crying listening to mother-son songs. So I’m trying not to focus on that. I’m not afraid of failure, because to me, there is no such thing. When something doesn’t work out, it’s an opportunity or a message to do something else.
Debbie Millman:
When you first got to New York, in an effort to get work at that time, you placed an ad in the Village Voice offering makeup lessons, and you got one answer, one response. Tell us a little bit about who it was and what he wanted you to do?
Bobbi Brown:
First of all, I am so incredibly impressed in how much homework you have done. I hope you are also a writer on the side, and could write my memoir, because it would be awesome. Save me a lot of time and energy. But yes, I thought well, OK, I needed cash. I had no money and my father, as a graduation gift, bought me my rent for one year. So I put an ad in the Village Voice; I got one call. I think I charged $150. It was from a man who said he was an actor and he was in a play. And it was actually a man, if I had to guess, because he didn’t tell me that he was going through something personal, and he was a cross dresser or something, because he brought an entire Louis Vuitton bag full of women’s clothes.
Bobbi Brown:
And he just wanted me to teach him how to put makeup on. And he tried on all the clothes, and it was just me and him in the space. And I’ll never forget it. And I was like, OK, maybe this is not a good idea. And I never did it again.
Debbie Millman:
Over time, you got some work assisting on “Saturday Night Live.” Within a year, you got a good gig at Glamour magazine. But wasn’t that the job where the hairdresser told you that you would never make it in New York, because you didn’t have a style?
Bobbi Brown:
And he wasn’t the only one that ever told me that. I’ve had stylists. And I had one that took me shopping in the East Village to buy me leather pants, because she thought I needed a style. And I’ll never forget when I put those leather pants on, I bought them and I put them on and I was like, oh my God, I look like an idiot.
Debbie Millman:
Now, how do you handle that kind of feedback? Did it give you pause? Did you think that perhaps she could be right?
Bobbi Brown:
Of course, I absolutely always listened to what people say and think about it. It’s taken me years to let go of any kind of insecurity and feeling bad about these things that people say. And realizing that, you know what, I do have a style. It might not be your style, but it’s my style. Yeah, of course, at the time, when anyone tells you any kind of criticism—your portfolio, your work isn’t up to speed, or you need to start contouring models’ faces if you want to work, you need to do this … I always had people telling me things. And I also was smart enough, maybe naive enough, to know this is their opinion. And other people have different opinions. But I always asked, because I do like feedback.
Debbie Millman:
What do you think of the current high-contour phase we seem to be going through brought on by the Kardashians?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, I’m not a fan of it, at all. I don’t like it. I find that it, if anything, it’s telling women what’s wrong with their features they have. I’m someone that believes that natural beauty is the best kind. And I’m 64 years old—do I wish I didn’t have lines in my forehead? I don’t really even wish that, because it’s not possible. So why spend the energy doing that? I just don’t focus on natural aging on myself. But I try to always look better, feel better, how I could be healthier, because I just look better when I’m healthier.
Debbie Millman:
There seems to be an almost acceptable trend now for a lot of plastic surgery. At one point, it was very secretive and people were sort of ashamed about it. Now it seems very out in the open and there does seem to be a very specific kind of look that people are going for, which to me, feels really unnatural and really highly constructed. How do you feel about what’s happening? And it’s sort of a leading question, given that I’ve just told you my opinion first.
Bobbi Brown:
Well, I remember when it started coming out to be more popular about 20 years ago, where people were, “yes, I just got some Botox,” or “yes, I just got some filler.” And it was still whispered. But I tried Botox twice. And both times, I had terrible, terrible reactions. I just remember saying, “OK, this makes me look weird, I don’t like it.” And I happen to be married to someone that doesn’t like that look. So I just never went back there. And there’s some people that do it, and you can’t really tell, and it’s tasteful. But there’s a lot of people that do it and you could tell. And I’m not a fan of it, but honestly, I’m not here to judge. Because there’re so many different women out there, and men, by the way, that like and want different things.
Bobbi Brown:
I think that’s OK. I mean, we’re in a place and a time where we have to find more love in our hearts for people. We have to find more acceptance of people that are different. And I think that if I can do anything, I could at least encourage people to be the healthiest versions of themselves. So they hopefully will feel better and not do things they don’t need to do.
Debbie Millman:
One of your first big breakthroughs took seven years. It was your first American Vogue cover. You worked with Patrick Demarchelier. And he was photographing Naomi Campbell for her first Vogue cover in 1989. And you’ve written about how this shoot was the first time anyone had filled Naomi’s lips in with a dark color. Prior to that, her signature lip was a dark outline around her lips with the inside being a lighter lip cover. And I went and looked at photos and it had that very ’50s kind of fake look. And you thought making her entire lip darker looked better, which it absolutely did. How did that cover change your career?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, first of all, the shoot was at like sunrise in the middle of the summer. So it was in the 7 o’clocks. We started the makeup very, very early, and we touched it up on the beach. And there were no mirrors. It was an old Calvin Klein lipstick, where I blotted it on her lip. And I was like, “Oh my God, it’s so beautiful.” … We shot it, and you never know if it’s a cover, it’s a cover try. And it did become a cover. And I heard through the grapevine that Naomi was very upset at the time, but I think she stopped doing it after that.
Debbie Millman:
She did, I looked. I couldn’t find anything post that cover.
Bobbi Brown:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
And now her lips look exactly like they did on your cover from 1989.
Bobbi Brown:
Right. So I stuck to my gut. I was really bad, and I still am, at doing makeup that I don’t find natural. And I don’t really get hired as much to do those kind of jobs anymore.
Debbie Millman:
At that point, as a makeup artist with essentially access to everything in the market, I understand that you found most products too artificial looking, making it really challenging to create a more natural look. And at the time, the most popular look was very, very white skin with bright red lips and painted, sculpted faces. And you wouldn’t do that kind of makeup. And in fact, I’ve read that you’ve stated that you couldn’t do that kind of makeup.
Bobbi Brown:
Yep.
Debbie Millman:
How come?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, I couldn’t, because I didn’t think it looked good. So no matter what I did, I couldn’t do it. And I remember the first time I tried, I got hired to do a cover of British Cosmo with Jerry Hall. And she was lovely. And she was a very, very big model at the time. I’d never met her before. And when I finished her makeup, I handed her a mirror, because I always handed people mirrors to say, “How do you like it?” And she looked at it, she said, “Oh, it’s very pretty.” She said, “Do you mind if I do a couple things?” I said, “Not at all.” She said, “Could you hand me that brush and that palette?” I said, “Sure.” She sat there and redid her entire face contouring, over-lining, whatever the look of the time was. And No. 1, I learned a lot about certain things that I might not have noticed. And No. 2, she was happy. So it became a cover. I still have it somewhere. And I couldn’t do it myself. She did it.
Bobbi Brown:
And that happened a couple other times, but then I’d work with other women that allowed me to do my thing. That didn’t even look in the mirror. The first time I did Diane Sawyer, I did her makeup, I showed her a mirror, she said, “Oh, I’m sure it’s fine.” And I was like, “Wow, things like that are memorable to me.”
Debbie Millman:
You said you learned a lot from the experience with Jerry Hall. What did you learn?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, I learned, No. 1, that it’s really important for the person you’re making up for a shoot to feel that they’re at their absolute best. Because that’s going to make the best picture. I also learned things like, she did her brows all the way to the edges, and used the brush to raise the brow for the arch. So I took away makeup techniques that I might not have known, but then I have kind of made them my own. And that has happened dozens and dozens and dozens of times. I always hand someone the mirror and see if they’re happy. And it’s not always a perfect experience, but I think a partnership when it comes to makeup is the way to go.
Debbie Millman:
Most lipsticks on the market at that time looked artificial, smelled bad, really artificial, and had a texture that was either greasy or dry. And to create lipsticks that were more flattering, you mixed commonly used colors that were very popular at the time: ultra-bright fuchsia—oh my God, the ’80s—acid oranges, frosted pinks with a little matte beige color, to create prettier, more wearable shades that looked great on pretty much anyone. Can you share how you created your bespoke nude shade at the time?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, when I was a makeup artist without a line, I figured out the beige tones down bad colors. And this blackberry tone into a lipstick makes it more even. I learned all these different tricks. So when I sat down and thought about this bespoke range I was going to create, it started with one color that looked like my lips. And I thought, oh my God, this is amazing. It was kind of like brownie, beigey, blue toned—it’s hard to even describe. And I said, “oh my God, everyone’s going to love this.” And then I realized, everyone’s not going to love it, because this particular color is my lip color. But women have pale lips and dark lips and blue lips. So I needed to make lipstick of all the lipstick shades.
Bobbi Brown:
And then I also said, “well, OK. Some people don’t like their nude lipstick colors.” And by the way, we all have different nude lipsticks. And some people like red, pink and orange, so I made those colors, too. So I curated 10 colors, and I thought, all right, with these 10 colors, anyone can find their shade. Or if you bought all 10, you can literally create any color in the world and never have to buy another lipstick.
Debbie Millman:
I read that you thought about different women you knew at the time and tried to imagine their perfect shade. Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy was the inspiration for a great red, Ricky Lauren inspired pale pink. Adrian Vittadini was the inspiration for beige, to Lisa Soto for raisin. And Naomi Campbell was Blackberry. I saw some of the wonderful swatches that you first created and worked with the Kiehl’s chemist to help create. How long did it take you to perfect the color palette?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, we started with brown, which was my color, and then back then we would just mail things back and forth to each other. It probably took me about six or nine months; coincidentally, it was the exact same time when I was having my first baby. So I had the time and I was not impatient. And I had no idea what was going to happen. I really thought I was just going to make these lipsticks to sell the models, maybe sell to my friends in the suburbs where I lived. And I had no idea what was going to happen, honestly. And so I did it. And I’m like, wow, this is so cool. And I started then selling them out of my home, mailing them to people. That’s how it began.
Debbie Millman:
I read that you got a three-line description of the new brand, Bobbi Brown Essentials, in Glamour magazine, which included your phone number. Did that jumpstart your sales? Did people realize? Did that do anything?
Bobbi Brown:
It did. So everything for me just kind of happens for a reason. I was having lunch with a friend who happened to be the beauty editor at the time, Leslie Seymour. And we talked about our first baby and work and she said, “What are you doing?” And I said, “I’m working on this makeup line. And I’m selling these out of my house.” And she says, “That’s so interesting, tell me about it.” She said, “Can I write about it?” And I was like, “Why would you want to write about it?” Now I know it’s called PR. And it did jumpstart people knowing about it. And we started selling them out of my house. And I think we did that for a year, maybe a year and a half.
Bobbi Brown:
And then I one day was at a party in New York, and I thanked the person that invited me, who—someone else brought me to the party. And I said to her, as I do, I talk to everybody, and I said, “What do you do?” And she said, “I’m a cosmetics buyer of Bergdorf Goodman.” I said, “Oh, I have this line of lipsticks.” And she said, “I’ll take them.” And that kind of started the conversation.
Debbie Millman:
Well, she said you would take them, and then she actually reneged …
Bobbi Brown:
She did.
Debbie Millman:
Tell us that story, because that’s one of my favorite Bobbi Brown stories.
Bobbi Brown:
Right? Well, she said, sounds amazing, she’ll bring them in and get everyone’s opinion. And she called me and said, “Everyone’s really excited. We’ll take them.” And I said, “That’s so great.” And then I think it must have been days later, I was doing a shoot for Saks Fifth Avenue, their catalog. And I had all the colors, because I was always busy doing something in between, getting ready for the makeup. And one of the art directors came over and said, “What are you doing? That’s so cool.” And I said, “Oh, I’m launching this line of lipsticks at Bergdorf.” And then later in the day, I called in to get my messages on my phone. I remember I had a beeper. And one of the messages was from the buyer that said, “I am so sorry, I have bad news. But we can’t take the lipsticks right now because we don’t have any room.”
Bobbi Brown:
So I remember my heart sunk into my stomach, and I was so bummed out. And the art directors came back over to show the other art directors and said, “Oh my God, we’d love to take this.” And I said, I don’t even know why I thought of this, and this was after the Bergdorf call, “I said, well, you can’t have it, because I’m launching at Bergdorf’s.” And then the Bergdorf person called back, asked me something, and I said, “No worries, it’s not a problem, because Saks wants it.” And she said, “I’ll call you back.” And they took it. So, yeah.
Debbie Millman:
I love that story, I love that story. And now they’re in both places.
Bobbi Brown:
Yes, yes.
Debbie Millman:
Your first 10 lipsticks debuted in 1991 at Bergdorf Goodman. You were projecting to sell 100 in a month; you sold 100 within the first day. What do you attribute to the success so quickly after launch?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, I think I hit a nerve. And I know I’m doing it today in the new company too. But I think back then, I hit a nerve. Because people really liked the feel of these lipsticks, they liked the colors. And it was so different than what was on the market, where most of the lipsticks on the market were the artificial, smelly, bright lipsticks. These were, they were comfortable on your lips, and they were colors that worked not just to match your lips, but with your skin. So they were so easy. And you put them on and you’re like, oh my God, it looks good. And so it hit a nerve. And it was very much word-of-mouth in the beginning. We didn’t advertise. And there was no social media, there was nothing that we have today. It was really word-of-mouth, and also the fact that I was a PR editorial makeup artist. So magazines would write about it. And it just kind of started taking off.
Debbie Millman:
You’ve talked at length about how you grew up in a time when beauty was epitomized by tall all-American models like Cheryl Tiegs and Christie Brinkley. You’ve said that when you look at a woman, you actually don’t see what’s wrong with her if they don’t look that way. You see what’s right with her. Has that always been the case for you?
Bobbi Brown:
Yes. And I’ve always appreciated interesting beauty. It was never the classic blond, blue eye, ’80s model or ’70s model. I loved when I started meeting women of different coloring, different things that they had. Whether it was someone who’s mixed, and I would always want to know, what are you? What are you? And I just always appreciated. And back then, I mean, I can’t even believe they called it “ethnic beauty,” which is anyone that wasn’t blond and blue eyes, basically. So now, it’s like women with strong noses. I love freckles. I actually like lines in the face. I like character and I like full lips. And I like just different things on different people.
Debbie Millman:
After four years, just four years, you were able to sell your company to Estee Lauder. But even before that, you had two big offers you turned down. What made you decide to sell to Lauder?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, I think that when Leonard Lauder called … and I didn’t think about selling to Estee Lauder, I thought about selling to Leonard Lauder. When Leonard called and asked to meet me, I went with the partner to his house. And I fell in love with him. And he basically said, “You’re beating us in the stores, I would like to buy you.” And at the time I said, “We’re really not on the market, we’re not for sale.” He said, “What if I could tell you, you could do what you love, and we could do all the things you don’t love? And what if I tell you that you could spend quality time as a mother and with your children, and do all the things that bring you joy?” And I was like, “Hmm, interesting.” And it was an offer that I couldn’t refuse.
Bobbi Brown:
It was an amazing feeling. I never felt bad. I mean, it was an incredible experience. I was thrilled my husband and I were able to send all of our nieces and nephews to college and just, it was an amazing thing.
Debbie Millman:
Didn’t he also tell you that you reminded him of his mother?
Bobbi Brown:
He did.
Debbie Millman:
And her entrepreneurship, when she started?
Bobbi Brown:
Yes, he did. But I used to laugh that, OK, we both had boys—she had two, I had three. She would hang out with royalty and presidents and I hung out with basketball players and rap stars.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, but I think yours sounds a lot more fun.
Bobbi Brown:
I think so, even though I really want to meet the queen. That’s been my lifelong dream.
Debbie Millman:
Well, you did meet some royalty here in the United States. In 2010, you were appointed by then-President Barack Obama to the Advisory Committee for Trade Policy and Negotiation. You were invited by First Lady Michelle Obama to participate in the White House’s Leadership and Mentoring Program for Young Women. And I believe you almost did Michelle Obama’s makeup for the 2009 inauguration. Is that correct?
Bobbi Brown:
Yes, I’ve done her makeup before, but I didn’t get the job for the inauguration. She brought her Chicago team. I don’t blame her. But I ended up doing Dr. Biden’s makeup, and becoming a very good friend of hers. I did her makeup for both inaugurations. And I don’t remember if it was the first or second one—I think it was the first one—where I somehow ended up in a motorcade amongst all of these guys that I had no idea who they were. And one guy turned to me, he said, “Who are you?” I said, “Oh, I’m a makeup artist.” He’s like, “What are you doing in my motorcade?” And I said, “Well, I did Dr. Biden’s makeup.” And I’m like, “Who are you?” And he said, “I am Leon Panetta, the Secretary of Defense.” I’m like, “Nice to meet you.” And he said, “Oh, can I take a picture for my wife?” I do have pictures of me and him in the motorcade.
Debbie Millman:
Awesome. Have you been to the new Biden White House?
Bobbi Brown:
I have not, I have not. It’s been a very interesting time with COVID and everything else. And I think they’re still running and trying to catch up.
Debbie Millman:
By 2010, that same year you were appointed by President Obama to be on the Advisory Committee, Bobbi Brown Cosmetics was available in more than 980 doors, as they call it, 56 countries. By 2012, there were over 60 freestanding Bobbi Brown cosmetic stores worldwide. And Bobbi Brown cosmetics were estimated to represent 10% of Estee Lauder company’s total sales, which is quite a lot. You stayed at Lauder for 22 years. What kept you at Lauder for so long?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, I honestly thought I owned the company; I acted as if it was my company, even after I sold it. I had so much support in the beginning. I was pretty much allowed to do what I thought was right, and what I wanted to do, and I interviewed every person that came in the door. I was able to build my team. I was able to do everything from name the products, to create the products, to promote the products. I did everything I was really good at. And for 20 years, it was pretty incredible. And I am so grateful to have had that experience. The last couple years, as I’m sure you could understand, was more challenging. And it was time to go.
Debbie Millman:
It’s interesting. I spoke to Jenna Lyons about leaving J.Crew, and she felt that she maybe left one or two years too late. Do you feel that way?
Bobbi Brown:
Yeah, easy to say that now. And by the way, as someone that is Susie’s sunshine and just naive, I always think I could fix things. I always think, all right, I’m going to go in and I’m going to organize, and I’m going to get everyone together, and we’re going to … and it just was challenging. And honestly, it was my Aunt Alice, who is now 90, who, I guess she was 85. And she called me one day: “How’s it going?” And I was like, “Oh my god, Aunt Alice, it’s torture, this, this.” She said, “Honey, It’s time. It’s time.” She said, “I’ve been listening to you complain for years, it’s time.” And it was time. And honestly, it was the biggest gift that could have ever happened to me. Because I would not have been able to be who I am and do all the things if I was still there.
Debbie Millman:
I read that after the shock of leaving wore off, there was the silence.
Bobbi Brown:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
What was the transition like for you?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, it was a joint decision. I went down in the elevator. And it was like the most amazing thing happened—all of this stress left my body. I realized I wasn’t responsible for all the problems anymore. It was an interesting couple days. So I had a couple days where I was, I don’t know if I was shocked, sad, mad, I don’t know what it was. I drank tequila with my friends who live next door to me for two days. And then I started reaching out and calling a few friends. One of the first people I called was Mickey Drexler, who was the most incredible mentor to me. And then I called my friend Richard Baker, who at the time owned Lord and Taylor and Saks. And he said, “I’m so glad.” He said, “I want you to make a justBOBBI store in the middle of Lord and Taylor.” And I said, “OK.” And my husband said, “I want you to help me with the hotel.” So I had two quiet days. But it was my choice.
Debbie Millman:
You don’t like being bored.
Bobbi Brown:
No, I get bored very easily. And I like to use my imagination and my mind, and my friends and my network. I like being in the middle of it.
Debbie Millman:
You had a four-year noncompete in the cosmetics industry, which—
Bobbi Brown:
No—
Debbie Millman:
… meant that you couldn’t—
Bobbi Brown:
I had a 25-year noncompete. When we sold the company, I signed a 25-year noncompete. When I left Bobbi Brown Cosmetics, I had four-and-a-half years left.
Debbie Millman:
Wow.
Bobbi Brown:
Wow.
Debbie Millman:
So you made a necklace with the date, right?
Bobbi Brown:
Yes, yes.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, you’re still wearing it?
Bobbi Brown:
I’m still wearing it, it’s not on today. But yes, I bought an ampersand. And on the back, I wrote 10.20. I didn’t know what I was going to do, but it signaled my freedom.
Debbie Millman:
How did you manage not knowing what your future looked like for the first time in your career?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, the positive things are, I got to do things like see people for lunch for no reason. I got to ride the train, instead of being in a car service, because I was too cheap to pay my driver. And walk into stores, and see what was out there. I kind of felt like George Bush, when he left the White House and said, “Oh, you could just go shopping and put your code in.” So I kind of liked all of that. And I just started thinking about possibilities. And I put together a mini team. And my mini team was to help me, I had a book to promote, Beauty From the Inside Out. And to kind of help me with the George Hotel, help me with justBOBBI at Lord and Taylor. And things just started getting interesting. I ended up getting an offer to create a wellness brand.
Debbie Millman:
Didn’t you become a certified health coach to do that, too?
Bobbi Brown:
I did, I went back to school and I got my degree as a health coach from Institute of Integrative Nutrition. It was all done digitally, and so much fun. And I just started talking to people and trying different things. And especially on the hotel, like putting together my favorite brands and products and reaching out to them. And so when you stay at the hotel, you’ll be sleeping on a Casper mattress. You will be having your Nespresso in the morning, and you will have a Dyson hair dryer, and onward and onward.
Debbie Millman:
So you’re once again building an empire. You’ve launched Evolution_18, it’s a lifestyle-inspired wellness line. You’ve started a website named justBOBBI.com. And drumroll, late last year, you launched your second makeup line in 30 years, your brand-new beauty brand Jones Road. Is it true you got the name from the Waze app?
Bobbi Brown:
Yes, because when you’re sitting there deciding what to name this company … and I can’t use my name, which is totally fine, did that. We couldn’t agree on names. We asked writers that we know, we hired copywriters. I even had Gloria Steinem working on names, because they did a job with her. She goes, “Oh, I’ll come up with a name.”
Debbie Millman:
What did she recommend?
Bobbi Brown:
You know what, if I could only find that list, because she wrote it on a piece of paper.
Debbie Millman:
In her handwriting.
Bobbi Brown:
Yeah, I know, right? But then one day, my husband, who is my biggest supporter in all of this, said to me, “You’ve got to come up with a name.” I said, “I know, but …” Dah, dah, dah. “And this one’s not available.” And he said, “We can’t even think of launching until, and we’re starting to run out of time.” So we were driving to the Hamptons. And my husband likes to look at Google Maps and Waze because God forbid, we’re in traffic when there’s a back road. And I put my head down and I looked at, I said, “Jones Road Beauty.” And he said, “What?” And I said, “Doesn’t that sound great?” He said, “It actually sounds awesome.” And I called the team, I said, “Put me on speakerphone.” They said, “Love it.” And it became Jones Road Beauty.
Bobbi Brown:
And for me, it was like, OK, Jones Road reminds me of a bespoke brand in the UK. And I’m a total Anglophile. It also was like, OK, well, I can’t use Brown, I’ll use Jones.
Debbie Millman:
I like it, because I actually thought it was like, I have a Jones for something.
Bobbi Brown:
Exactly, and that was the last one. Yeah. And everyone has a Jones for beauty.
Debbie Millman:
Exactly, exactly. So tell us about the brand and your various signature products, some of which I’m wearing.
Bobbi Brown:
Aww. Well, first of all, working on it, it is a clean brand, which just means it’s a brand of now, because there’s 2,700 banned ingredients that you cannot have if you want to be a clean brand.
Debbie Millman:
You said 2,700?
Bobbi Brown:
2,700, and that’s the truth. So I wanted to create the best products, I wanted to make this different kind of makeup. Because what happened also, while I was still at the brand, when you’re part of a big brand in a big corporation, you have many people to please. And you have to come up with these products for different parts of the country. And I had to approve, at the end of my stay, products that I just didn’t like. And I was pressured into it, where I never would have had to do that earlier. And I just don’t like makeup that is so heavy and strong. Things were changing while I was still at the brand, the digital brands, the direct-to-consumer brands. But my personal makeup style on myself, and on the people I was making up, was changing also; less makeup, more fresh, more skin, healthier.
Bobbi Brown:
I just wanted to have makeup that you could put on that instantly made you look like that. I was always frustrated with some of my artists that couldn’t understand what I wanted. Because it made everybody look like they had a makeup face. I don’t like a makeup face. So working with chemists and a couple product development people, I created these products that I was like, oh my God, these are amazing, amazing. Where I somehow named things like, we named the pencil the Best Brown Pencil. We named an eyeshadow the Best Color in the World. I just, I was so enamored and excited. And the Miracle Balm, which is our hero product. It was a happy mistake creating it, and it literally instantly makes everybody look better.
Debbie Millman:
Why was it an accident?
Bobbi Brown:
Because I asked the chemists to create something that I wanted to make. And it came back completely not what I wanted. And instead of saying “ugh,” I just tried it. I stuck my hand in it, I put it on, I’m like, oh my God. So I wanted something that was more like a foundation. So it would have been more skin-colorish. But it ended up to be this Miracle Balm that you put on your face, that’s a hybrid skincare tinted makeup, that you don’t really even need a foundation when you put it on. Or just need it on parts. And if you did wear foundation, it made your foundation look so much better. And that was the first product that we said we could launch a company with, just this product.
Debbie Millman:
Is it true that the Miracle Balm has a wait list of 20,000 people?
Bobbi Brown:
It did, it did, because we didn’t know how popular it was going to be. So we launched on the day my noncompete was up, one week prior to the presidential election in the middle of a pandemic, where I did the “Today” show on my Zoom, with basically a blazer on top and shorts on the bottom. Then I did The Wall Street Journal and then I did Elvis Duran. So I hit three different medias from my office. And that’s how I launched it.
Debbie Millman:
Incredible.
Bobbi Brown:
I didn’t know and realize, No. 1, how interested people were that I was back. And how much they’d love the product. So we thought we’d have enough for six months, and we sold out of two of the colors in three weeks. So there was a huge wait list. And then the coolest thing happened. Someone called me and said, “Oh my God, we just found 2,500 dusty rose Miracle Balms in the warehouse. But we have no boxes, I’m going to order boxes.” I said, “You’re not going to order boxes, I’m not waiting a month. Go to the store, get me white sandwich bags, get some neon tape and bring it to me.” And we printed the ingredients on a card, put it in the bag and taped the bag with one little neon stripe. And we sold 2,500 that day, just like that.
Debbie Millman:
So tell us the origin story of the bag that you created that kind of looks like a lunch bag, that you stored Jones Road in. Because when I got my products, they came in a little bag with a little white snap button, which was really charming. Where did that come from?
Bobbi Brown:
Well, we did not want to put anything in plastic, we did not want to use those little packing things that are environmentally bad. And we wanted to keep everything, you know, indie, low-cost, simple. And we just found a company that had this fabric. You’re a brander, I love creating the logo, I love creating the feel. I love how the logo looks on the packaging. And I believe that everything sends a message.
Bobbi Brown:
So the bag it goes in, the box it goes in, the note, every little thing matters. The paperclip matters. So of course I worried it wrinkled a little bit, but you know what? It’s supposed to wrinkle a little bit.
Debbie Millman:
It’s like linen.
Bobbi Brown:
It is.
Debbie Millman:
It looks better that way.
Bobbi Brown:
Yeah, exactly. So we have since launched almost every month a new product category.
Debbie Millman:
Who did the identity for you?
Bobbi Brown:
Me.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, good.
Bobbi Brown:
Honestly, well, not me, because I don’t know graphic design. We had hired a few different people and I ended up finding a graphic designer who ended up going to high school with my youngest child; she was one year out of school. And she joined freelance, and everything she did, I fell in love with. So I have this kid, Aaron, who does everything for me, and we work really closely together. And for me, like, “Bobbi, what do you like?” “I love that, oh my God, I love that. And Aaron, why don’t you try to do this, this way?” Because you know, I have this vision, but I don’t have the skills to actually bring my vision to life. So Aaron has been a big supporter and big help.
Debbie Millman:
Bobbi, I have one last question for you. But then I have three sort of rapid-fire beady questions I want to ask you.
Bobbi Brown:
Sure.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, wait, I actually have two last questions. I read that you wanted to have a hashtag for the brand called, “how not to look like shit.”
Bobbi Brown:
Well, we actually have a hashtag because, I might be the only one using it, #hownottolooklikeshit. Because I also realized that’s truly why people wear makeup. I don’t think people that want to look alluring and sexy are necessarily going to be a fan of Jones Road. But I’m going to attract the women that just want to look better with makeup. So yes, #hownottolooklikeshit.
Debbie Millman:
How can people buy the new line? Where can they find you?
Bobbi Brown:
We are only direct-to-consumer. We have Jonesroadbeauty.com. You can also buy off the Instagram. We are available, I don’t know how they got it, but at the George Hotel in Montclair, we have a little pop-up that has some of the products. That’s my hotel, that’s how they got it. And we’re opening a freestanding store in Montclair in September-ish/October, that will be our first freestanding store. We are not in any retail. We’ll be doing our first pop-up at Goop in Sag Harbor this summer, and working on our second one. So we’re not doing traditional sales, which I’m pretty psyched about, at the moment.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, that’s great. Really great. OK, three quick beauty questions, you OK with that?
Bobbi Brown:
Yeah, I’m good.
Debbie Millman:
I think everyone that listens to the podcast that loves makeup would be mad at me if I didn’t. So I’m doing it for my listeners. All right, No. 1. What’s the best way to tell if a makeup shade is right for your skin?
Bobbi Brown:
Honestly, the only way is to look in the mirror, and if you like the way it looks, it’s the right color. OK, that’s the general question. But then there’s rules like foundation should blend into your skin, to know it’s the right color. Blush should be the color of your cheeks when you pinch them. Some of those things are just little, you know, hacks, to help you find the right color.
Debbie Millman:
When you’re putting on foundation, do you use your fingers or a sponge?
Bobbi Brown:
Or a brush, any of that works? I don’t even use foundation; I use our face pencils. Because you don’t really need foundation everywhere, you just need to even out redness, dark spots and anything else that pops up on your face.
Debbie Millman:
What is one makeup routine most women get wrong?
Bobbi Brown:
Definitely picking a foundation. I, honestly, I find that most foundations out in the world don’t allow your face to look like skin. It looks like you’ve got a foundation on. I personally don’t like it.
Debbie Millman:
Last one: What’s one makeup tip you wish every person who wears makeup knew?
Bobbi Brown:
Concealer, something to lighten under your eyes, makes you look not tired. I think that’s really important. And a lot of women skip that, because they don’t know how to look for the right one. And for me, my No. 1 thing is blush. If I do nothing else, and I’m lucky, because I wear glasses, so I can get away with looking tired. But if I wear blush, I look better. And by the way, whatever makeup you have, whether it’s an eyeshadow or a blush, you could use it on more than one thing. You could make any of your products multipurpose products, there’s no rules.
Debbie Millman:
Bobbi Brown, thank you so much for making so many people feel more beautiful or not feel like shit. And thank you, thank you for joining me today on Design Matters.
Bobbi Brown:
My pleasure, I’ve been looking forward to this. Thank you so much.
Debbie Millman:
Thank you. You can find out more about Bobbi at her website, justBOBBI.com. And you can learn a lot more about makeup from any one of her nine wonderful books. This is the 17th year we’ve been podcasting Design Matters, and I’d like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference, or we can do both. I’m Debbie Millman, and I look forward to talking with you again soon.