Soccer star Abby Wambach and author Glennon Doyle discuss their striking first meeting, falling in love as pen pals, addiction and sobriety, and the art of speaking out and speaking up.
Soccer star Abby Wambach and author Glennon Doyle discuss their striking first meeting, falling in love as pen pals, addiction and sobriety, and the art of speaking out and speaking up.
Speaker 1:
From the TED Family of Podcasts. This is Design Matters with Debbie Millman. For 15 years, Debbie Millman has been talking with designers and other creative people about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they’re thinking about, and working on. On this episode, Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle talk to be on zoom about love, career, and mental health.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I don’t like calling myself mentally ill. Mentally ill makes it seem like I’m about to get better. I am not, Debbie.
Debbie Millman:
In 2009 Glennon Doyle was married with three children. And she started writing a blog called Momastery. She wrote a book that became an enormous bestseller. But on the start of her tour for book number two, a memoir about the dramatic destruction and painstaking reconstruction of her marriage, her life changed dramatically. She met Abby Wambach. Abby Wambach is a two-time Olympic gold medalist, FIFA women’s world cup champion, and six-time winner of the United States Soccer Athlete of the Year award. She has also written two best-selling books, and has a third on the way. Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle are now married. They join me today from their home in Florida to talk about their lives and careers before and after they met. Abby and Glennon, welcome to this very special episode of Design Matters, the New York State Writers Institute and the University at Albany Speaker Series.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you. We’re so excited to be here, and very excited to meet you Debbie.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, very excited to meet you too. And my wife Roxane Gay says hi. She’s fans of both of you as well.
Abby Wambach:
You say hi right back.
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely.
Glennon Doyle:
You two are so amazing together. And say hi [crosstalk 00:01:59] all of it. Just everything that y’all do, we follow everything.
Debbie Millman:
Thank you. Glennon, I’d like to start by reading an excerpt from your latest book Untamed, which as of this interview has been on the New York Times Best Seller list for 28 weeks. Congratulations. That is quite a feat. So, I’d like to set a stage for what I’m about to read for our listeners. You’re at a large librarians dinner with a group of other prominent authors. You were there to talk about the launch of your upcoming book, Love Warrior, which recount your then, as I mentioned, husband’s infidelity and subsequent attempts at reconciliation and forgiveness.
Debbie Millman:
And there you are at this dinner sitting in your assigned seat, despite your talent for public speaking, you don’t like small talk. And you’re sitting in your seat about to eat a salad. Here is the excerpt. “As I’m reaching for dressing, the children’s book lady looks over at the door. I look over too. Suddenly a woman is standing there where nothingness used to be. She takes up the entire doorway, the entire room, the entire universe. She has short hair, platinum on top, shaved on the sides.
Debbie Millman:
She is wearing a long trench coat, a red scarf, a warm half smile, cool, still confidence. She stands there for a moment taking inventory of the room. I stare at her, and then take inventory of my entire life. My whole being says there she is. Then I lose control of my body. I stand up and open my arms wide. She looks over, coix her head to the side, raises her eyebrows, smiles at me. “Fuck, fuck, fuck, why am I standing? Why are my arms open? Oh my God, what am I doing? I sit back down.” She walks around the table and shakes hands with everyone.
Debbie Millman:
When she gets to me, I stand up again, turn around, face her. “I’m Abby.” She says. I ask if I can hug her, because what if this is the only chance? She smiles and opens her arms, then the smell that will become home to me, skin like powder and fabric softener blended with the wool of her coat, and her cologne, and something that smelled like air, like outdoors, like Christmas sky, like a baby, and a woman, and a man, and the whole world. The only seat left is at the far end of the table. So, she walks away from me and sits down.” Abby, my first question is to you. Tell us about your experience in that moment when you first met Glennon. What did you feel? What did you think? What did you experience with that hug? Tell us everything.
Abby Wambach:
Well, leading up to this event, I usually like to see who’s going to be at the event. Pick out maybe the person that I’m going to want to talk to the most. And at the time, I was really struggling to figure out what I was going to write in my book. And part of what Glennon’s story, her backstory was matching my current story at the time. So, I knew that there was maybe going to be this person that I’d be able to connect with. And when I got into the room, and she stood up … She didn’t write this part in the book, but she actually ended up falling a little bit.
Abby Wambach:
And nobody else stood up. So, this is like the most supreme awkward moment in all of awkward moments. And so, because she stood up, it forced my hand into having to walk around the whole table to her because I felt bad. But as soon as I got to her, there was something that was happening, and I couldn’t pinpoint it at the time. She asked if we could hug, we hugged, and then I sat down. And then, throughout the entire rest of the dinner, I just felt so annoyed that I was not sitting right next to her. I felt curious about what the energy was happening.
Abby Wambach:
And then, as the dinner went on, it kept building and kept building. And then, we got literally about three or four minutes to walk from that back room to the stage where we were going to go try to sell our books to the librarians of America. And there was an energy between us that was definitely both ways. She was many years sober. I was dealing with trying to get sober at the time. I was like a month sober. And so, I thought maybe our relationship would be based in sobriety, and that she was maybe going to mentor me through my early sobriety days. And then, I heard her speak, and that is what changed it all for me.
Abby Wambach:
If you’ve ever heard Glennon speak, it’s hard not to fall in love with her, and it’s hard not to listen, and cry, and laugh within seconds. So, though, that initial moment for me might not have been that there she is, like she experienced, it definitely happened throughout the rest of that night. And I went home and I read Love Warrior. And it was funny because the way Love Warrior ends, it’s like a marriage redemption story. Like she figures it out with Craig in the end. And at the end, I was like, “What?” I was so upset. It was like three o’clock in the morning, and I shut the book. And I was like, “That can’t be right. She didn’t say any of that on the stage.”
Glennon Doyle:
She wasn’t [inaudible 00:07:45].
Abby Wambach:
So, that was my experience.
Debbie Millman:
Now, I know that the very next time you met in-person, which was several months later, you had both untangled yourselves from your previous marriages. So, you could be together, but you did this before you even kissed for the first time. And so, in reading Forward and reading Wolfpack, and reading Untamed, there’s not a lot of detail in those months. So, I’m wondering if you can share just a little bit about how you started to move to threading your lives together at that point.
Abby Wambach:
Glennon.
Glennon Doyle:
So, well, the wild thing is not just, we had never kissed, we had never been in the same room again, until we both-
Debbie Millman:
Until that hotel room, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Right. This isn’t even in the book, but at the event, Abby had an assistant who was a dear friend. Abby’s assistant was watching from … There’s a thousand librarians in the hall that we were in. And she was watching me speak, and she was watching Abby react to me speaking. So, Abby, was tearing up and being very emotional. And her assistant understood that Abby was going through a very hard time, at that point, with sobriety. The assistant came up to me at the end of the event, and handed me her card, and said, “I don’t know what’s happening tonight, but I’ve never seen Abby like this. And I just feel like she needs you in her life.”
Abby Wambach:
And this is unbeknownst to me. I have no idea that my assistant was doing this.
Glennon Doyle:
And I was stunned, but I was also like, “Well, that makes two of us lady. I also agree that I should be in Abby’s life.” So, Debbie, a few days later, I was just stunned by this experience for days. A few days later, I wrote an email to Abby about sobriety, about my experience, and really sobriety. And I sent it to the assistant. Because I didn’t know, in early sobriety, should I even be reaching out to her? I didn’t know. I said, “If you think that this is a good thing for her to read, send it to her.” That’s how we started emailing.
Glennon Doyle:
So, then the assistant sent it to Abby. Abby emailed me back. We ended up just writing to each other every single day, just writing, writing, writing, writing. Eventually, Abby, later on, put together all of our emails in a book for me and tied it. It was just inches and inches thick.
Abby Wambach:
Two rims of paper.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. We fell in love through writing to each other. And eventually, I understood that I was in love with her. And I had been through infidelity. So, I had been on the other side of that inside of a marriage. And at some point I realized, “Okay, I don’t anymore believe that I owe this man the rest of my life. But I do think that I owe it to him and to myself to untangle myself before … ” What we had felt so pure and beautiful that I felt like I can’t eff it up by doing anything that would in the long run feel icky to the family.
Glennon Doyle:
So, we just had to just freaking decide on the phone. And then, I sat down with Craig, and said, “I don’t know if this is going to work out with her, but I do know that I can’t anymore pretend that this is what I want. So, regardless of whether it works out with Abby or not, I have to go.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. And it’s made more complicated because both of us had … I mean, I lived in Portland, Oregon at the time, she lived at Naples. It’s like, how do we do this without really even knowing for sure that this is going to work out? So, we both had to take big leaps of faith. And we both did, thankfully. And the other side to this is the three kids, and Craig, and how beautifully he handled the situation. When Glennon told him, the first thing he said to her … I mean, basically, it was a joke, but it’s true. He’s like, “Oh, this is what [inaudible 00:11:57] Indigo girls is about. Right?”
Glennon Doyle:
I was like, “Oh my God, I think it might be.”
Abby Wambach:
And it just set a really important tone for, even though, what could have been a really hard time … We were both dealing with really hard things. We were both trying to, in the best way we knew, to extricate ourselves from our former lives, so that we can create room for each other.
Debbie Millman:
In reading Untamed and Forward, the memoir that Abby was at the librarians dinner to promote, I can see the intricacies of the threads that tie you together. And the first thing I want to ask you about is control. Abby, you state this in the Forward.
Abby Wambach:
Rolling right into it. I love it.
Debbie Millman:
You state this, “I’ll admit some hard truths about myself. I know I’m a bit of a nightmare to live with, with my need for control, constantly at odds with my instinct to go with the flow.” And Glennon, you write this in Untamed, “I would say in my marriage with Abby, I’ve come to understand that I’m a very controlling person. Okay. And before in my other relationships I just thought I was a very good leader.” I relate by the way, to both of you. So, Glennon, before we get into the nitty-gritty of control, I do want to ask you what you think the difference is between being controlling and being a good leader.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So, I believe that Abby is an excellent leader. And I think it’s because she finds a way to trust the people she’s leading. Okay? Abby has a trust in the universe. She has a trust that things will work out. I don’t even understand what that means. Things don’t work out, I work them. I make them work. And I don’t make them work, then nothing works. She believes in people. And that allows her to bring out the best in people. Trust when an outcome happens, it wasn’t exactly her idea. I think that’s leadership. I think the control thing comes with a lack of trust. So, to my children, to my wife, I am here to help you make all of your dreams come true. So, now, I’m going to tell you what your dreams are. Right?
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Because what I really want is just my best for you. So, it’s-
Debbie Millman:
Your version of best.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. And that comes-
Debbie Millman:
Which is the best.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. I will tell you what’s the best, and then we will all go for it. I think that the difference between leadership and control has something to do with trust.
Debbie Millman:
Well, it’s interesting because you’ve said that you think that a person can control people or love people, but you can’t do both.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I figured that out in a conversation. So, one of the things that’s really beautiful for me about being in a same gender marriage is that, I mean, we talk about everything to the point where it’s just like, “Well, it’s ridiculous.” Don’t you think? It’s ridiculous. So, one day, I was talking to her about something that I … sometimes I feel like I’m doing the thing where I’m just helping. And I’m just leading. But Abby can see through that. She knows when I’m being manipulative, and doing the controlling things.
Glennon Doyle:
So, she stopped me one day and she said, “Glennon, I can tell that you’re trying to control me right now. And I just want you to know that that makes me really sad because I respect you and trust you so much. And when you do what you’re doing right now, I can feel deeply that you just don’t trust me.” She was exactly right. So, that’s when I figured out, “Oh, I can love her, or I can control her, but I can’t do both because love requires this radical trust.”
Debbie Millman:
So, we only try to control things that we don’t trust then?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s exactly right. I think that that is correct.
Abby Wambach:
I also think that there’s a fear factor. It’s like based on in some ways how we’d been brought up, and the way that we see the world, and you have anxiety. And that sets the scene for you, in certain ways. So, though you might have some controlling tendencies, I understand why you have them. And also, the hard part for those folks who are in control and successful is that they actually think and deem the success of their life is because of their control. And so, that’s why it’s so hard to disassociate some of this need for control, or perceived need for control because it’s so closely tied in to the success of a person’s life, in some ways. Maybe I’m wrong.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s true.
Abby Wambach:
Seriously.
Glennon Doyle:
She can just be wrong, Debbie.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t pretend to know everything. I just know that my leadership [crosstalk 00:17:01] is just different than yours.
Glennon Doyle:
That is correct.
Debbie Millman:
It’s interesting, I think that there’ve been times when I’ve had conversations with Roxane about this, and she’s like, “Well, don’t you trust me?” And it’s not a matter of not trusting her, it’s a matter of not trusting myself in my life, that anything bad could happen at any given time. And therefore, I have to be on constant alert to make sure that nothing bad is going to happen, and make sure everything stays exactly the same every single day. It’s really exhausting.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Debbie Millman:
But I don’t think it’s about not trusting the other person, because I do feel deeply trustful of that person’s presence in my life and feelings. It’s a matter of not trusting the world. Therefore, I have to protect. This needs to be protected.
Glennon Doyle:
So, don’t you feel like it’s actually a deep, almost spiritual … It’s like some people believe that the world is on their side, and things will work out, and that everything happens for a reason. And some people don’t believe that. Some people believe that if the world stays together, it’s because I worried enough.
Debbie Millman:
Yes. Absolutely.
Abby Wambach:
And also, it’s a perception of how endangered you are. Like for me, I’ll go into, I know best mode, when our lives are at stake. So, when I’m in fight or flight, when I’m in that experience where I’m trying to make sure everybody gets out alive of some situation, this is a situation where I got to go into that mode.
Glennon Doyle:
I live there.
Abby Wambach:
That’s where you live.
Glennon Doyle:
I live.
Abby Wambach:
That is where you live. You think everything is life and death.
Glennon Doyle:
And that’s anxiety, right? I don’t know how much of that is mental health stuff. I don’t know. But I do live in fight or flight.
Abby Wambach:
But the very thing that we could in a marriage say that could be problematic is the very thing that makes you want to best activists on the planet. So, I don’t know. I can take some of it if you’re saving the world also.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. No, I totally get it. And Abby, I think you might find this to be incredulous, but there are times when I’m watching a sports game, whether it’d be a baseball game, or a soccer game, or football game, and my team is losing, I have to leave the room because I think I’m the reason they’re losing. It has nothing to do with their play-
Abby Wambach:
That’s so powerful.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, exactly.
Abby Wambach:
So powerful.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. I remember a time when there was a blackout in New York, and I was in Boston at the time. It was a big blackout. And I remember thinking, “Oh, I’m so glad I’m not in New York at this time.” Because I would’ve thought it was my blow dryer that [crosstalk 00:19:34].
Glennon Doyle:
So, Debbie-
Debbie Millman:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
… It’s a worrying thing, but it’s also a grandiosity thing.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, it’s narcissism. Absolutely.
Glennon Doyle:
There is no humility in it in thinking that you control the world. Right?
Debbie Millman:
Or that I’m responsible for all the bad things in the world. It’s not like if something good happens, like there’s a rainbow, and I’m like, “Oh, yay, it’s because I’m here.”
Glennon Doyle:
Never.
Debbie Millman:
Never.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, good point. We take credit for none of the good stuff, but we take responsibility for all of the [inaudible 00:19:59].
Abby Wambach:
I think part of why I’m able to see it as it is, the way that I see it now, is because I have been in certain situations that I was one of the best players, or on one of the best teams in the world, and things went wrong, and it was my fault, and the world didn’t end. So, I have that-
Debbie Millman:
There’s a lesson there, Glennon.
Glennon Doyle:
There is, Debbie.
Debbie Millman:
I was also struck by the notion in both of your books, that you both have struggled with feeling like a fraud, which is something that I also struggle with nearly every day. In fact, Abby, you have an entire chapter dedicated to the feeling in Forward. And it’s hard to imagine the holder of the world record for international golds for both men and women soccer players could ever feel like a fraud. I mean, that is tangible evidence. That’s the really nice thing about sports, and math is tangible evidence. Two goals is more than one goal.
Glennon Doyle:
True.
Debbie Millman:
There’s like a clear winner here. So, what do you both feel is the foundation of that fraudness or that fraudity? Which is a word I’ve made up, but like …
Abby Wambach:
I think that the higher you are able to climb a mountain, the less stable your footing is. And I think that all people who achieve really high levels of success in anyway, I’m not talking about just monetarily, I’m talking about doing what they’re wanting to be doing at the highest level, I think that it feels so daunting. I think all people who find themselves in that position have to look in the mirror, and wonder, “Really? How did I do this?” That doesn’t mean that there’s equal amount of knowing that you deserve to be there, and an understanding.
Abby Wambach:
I also think that women have a harder time believing that they deserve any reward for their hard work, because we’ve been given a lie our whole lives that everything that we get is handed to us, not that we’ve earned it. So, yeah, that’s what I would say. What do you think?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, and also to be people who are leading, who are out there leading, and who have so many struggles. I mean, to be people who … Abby, is a person who was being called Captain America, and also struggling mightily with alcoholism. I am a clinically depressed motivational speaker. It’s tricky. Right? When I talk about this concept, the imposter syndrome, fraud, whatever you want to call it, it is so much more relevant, and deep in my friends who are women than my friends who are not women. And I do believe that that’s because we have always been a part of a culture where men can lead, and can fail, and men can lead, and can have problems, and that is never an issue.
Glennon Doyle:
But we live in a place where women are expected to be perfect, whatever that means. And so, any woman who is in any particular place of power or leadership, who’s also human, feels scared about that. And it’s not a wrong feeling. Because women know inherently that the second they make a human mistake, that the second their humanity comes to the forefront, they will be crucified for it. Right?
Debbie Millman:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Times, and times, and times again.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s not made up. That’s what we do to women. We allow them to rise a little bit, and then we take them down. So, whenever people talk about this as like something we should just get over, I always think, well, I think it’s something that we should study, and know how to deal with. But I think it’s legit for women.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. Glennon, you came out when you fell in love with Abby, which means you came at around 40. I came out when I was 50, which was nine years ago. And Abby, though you came out in college, you still struggled with it. You’d think by now it would be easier, but it still seems like something someone has to announce as opposed to just being that way. It’s interesting that people still feel the need to announce their sexuality when they’re gay as opposed to when they’re straight. How do you feel, if at all, that the world has changed for young people coming out now?
Abby Wambach:
Oh, I love this question because I think it has changed drastically in 20 years. Our children, our oldest, he told us years ago. He’s like, “I understand the fight for LGBTQ rights, but really people my age they don’t really care. Just be you. Love who you love. And that’s the end of the story.”
Glennon Doyle:
He said, “That’s a grownup problem.”
Abby Wambach:
It’s a grownup problem.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s your own problem.
Abby Wambach:
But we have come a far way. And the interesting dichotomy between Glennon and I is that I still have unlearning to do around it. Because I have internalized homophobia inside of me based on my upbringing. Being brought up Catholic. The fear of God or whatever is inside of me. And Glennon just doesn’t have that shame. But I just think it’s been such a beautiful thing to witness over the last 20 years. The growth of our country, the rights that we now have. Hopefully, they won’t be threatened over the coming years.
Glennon Doyle:
And I think there’s more to it than just like, “I just happened to not have shame and you did.” I think it’s because we came out in different times. So, Abby and I were at the bank recently, and the man handed us paperwork for us to sign, to become part of this bank. And he handed it to us, and at the top it said, husband and wife. And I just burst out laughing. I just said, “Dude, you have got to be freaking kidding me.” We’re at this big table. I said, “Look at this. You just handed us this paperwork that says to us right here that we don’t belong where you’re trying to get … ” Like, “Man, are you out of your mind in 2020?” This is what I was saying to him.
Glennon Doyle:
And so, we worked it out. We talked to him about welcome to this century. And then got back in the car and Abby was really quiet. And she said, “Glennon, why is it always you that speaks out in those moments?” She said, “I looked at that paperwork. I noticed it. And I wasn’t going to say a thing. Why is it always you?” And we talked about that so much. And here’s what I think is the answer to that. It’s because Abby knew she was gay as a kid. She grew up in a time where she was being told she was an abomination. She had to stands screaming dyke at her while she played on the …
Glennon Doyle:
She dated every single one of her girlfriends knowing that she would never get married. She was used to being marginalized. I grew up as a heterosexual, white, abled, thin, pretty enough, Christian girl, and woman. I am not used to being marginalized. It is shocking to me when it happens. And so, when something like that happens to me, my initial reaction is to burst out laughing, and to say something, right?
Debbie Millman:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
But Abby has grown up at a time where she’s used to that. [crosstalk 00:27:29].
Debbie Millman:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right? But I think that’s what it is, is because we came out at different times. And people like you who came out when the risk was so much higher, are the people who earned the entitlement, I come to the table with-
Abby Wambach:
I love it.
Glennon Doyle:
… For me.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. I have to say that Roxane and I go through some very similar, but different types of scenarios because she’s black, and because she’s living in an unruly body. She gets … I can’t even begin to talk about, and that’s really her story as well, but she gets so much discrimination. And I’m very similar to Glennon. I see it and I’m like, “Whoa, wait a minute. What just happened here?” We were on a work trip last week, and we were checking into a hotel, and the hotel didn’t seem to have our reservation.” And looked at Roxane very skeptically. And I looked at him and I’m like, “Well, you sound skeptical about the reservation. Is there a problem here?”
Debbie Millman:
And I didn’t think twice about it. I just said what I said, because he kind of gave us a bad vibe, and I wasn’t going to stand for it. And afterward Roxane said the same thing, like, “I would never have said anything. I just wouldn’t have said anything.” And I’m the same way. I’m used to a life of real privilege as an able-bodied, white woman living in New York City. And it’s shocking to witness the amount of discrimination that I now see.
Abby Wambach:
And that’s why it’s so important for those who haven’t felt certain kinds of marginalizations in their life to speak up for those who are marginalized. Because this is the exact thing. It’s like that moment would have been missed by this bank. That if Glennon hadn’t said something, that moment would have happened again to the next gay couple that walked in the door. And had it not been for her, they changed her whole policy. Now, it’s spouse/spouse, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Or partner/partner.
Abby Wambach:
Or partner/partner as it should be.
Glennon Doyle:
And then you think about, okay, so we are white semi-famous people, that shit’s happening to us. I talked to a friend after I had said something online about feeling not aligned with the born this way narrative. And there was a big to do about it. And I had said something to her about my experience coming out, and the acceptance, and the love. And she said, “Well, gayness, queerness at this moment is accepted and embraced for about 10 people.” And you’re one of them.
Abby Wambach:
That was such an important point.
Glennon Doyle:
But your experience is not the experience still of most queer kids in this country. And will be different for our son. Our son came out to us a few months ago, or a year ago now. And just even thinking about he’ll have just a differen … It’s-
Debbie Millman:
Congratulations.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you. We were so happy. We got one. We got one.
Abby Wambach:
Well, it was such an interesting thing for me because I still have, like I said, this internalized homophobia inside of me-
Debbie Millman:
Oh. So, do I.
Abby Wambach:
… That when he told us my initial feeling was total fear. I was so scared for him. And what that moment did for me was heal so many childhood traumas around the way that I experienced coming out with my mom, that it made me understand that, “Oh, she wasn’t afraid of me. She was afraid for me.”
Debbie Millman:
For you.
Abby Wambach:
And that is a chasm-wide difference. It made me see, and understand the situation very differently. She’s doesn’t want me to have a harder life. And it is a harder life-
Glennon Doyle:
Also, way better life. Way freaking better. Way better than-
Debbie Millman:
I’ve been on both sides. I know.
Abby Wambach:
[crosstalk 00:31:42] work the harp.
Debbie Millman:
You both write at length about your deep desire to be seen. And how before meeting each other, you often felt like you weren’t really, truly being seen by anybody. So, how have you opened yourselves up to being seen? Because I think that’s a big struggle for a lot of people.
Abby Wambach:
Do you want to go for it?
Glennon Doyle:
No, go ahead.
Abby Wambach:
The way in which Glennon loves me, makes me feel not just seen but held. So, I’ve changed so much over the last four years. And it’s because I feel like I keep turning into the person I believe Glennon sees me to be.
Glennon Doyle:
Aw, that’s so beautiful.
Debbie Millman:
Goosebumps.
Abby Wambach:
One minute another. And that’s just true. And it guides me. And it gives me comfort and love rather than like, “Oh God, she’s looking at me all the time.” It’s like, “No, it feels inspiring.” And I think that that’s the big difference between any relationship I had before Glennon and now. Good luck answering whatever [crosstalk 00:32:53] you’re going to answer.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, damn. That was good. I guess, you’re really the only person that I’m not always trying to be better than I am with. I just feel like I’m an anxious person. I’m just always trying to be calm. That I’m a controlling person, and I’m always trying not to be. I’ll never forget the first time that I had, I would say it was like a panic attack in front of you. We were laying in bed and I just started this panic attack thing. And I was in the middle of it. And I was so embarrassed. And I was curled up in a ball in the bed. We made it through. You were just holding me, and we made it through. And then, I said something like, “I’m so sorry afterwards.”
Glennon Doyle:
And you said, “Oh, that’s just what happens to people who are as magic as you are. You’re just feeling the universe so deeply. I wouldn’t change these moments for anything.” And I was like, “Oh my God, I can literally have a panic attack with this woman. And she thinks it’s magic. There’s nothing I can do to blow this up.” It was this ultimate feeling of safety because I’ve dealt with mental health struggles my whole life, my shame fear is, “Okay, I’m crazy. And eventually, they’ll figure it out, and then it’ll be over.” So, to have that moment, and have her see it as part of beauty, and not even a departure from it.
Abby Wambach:
Yes, you are crazy, and that’s why I love you. Moving on.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I just don’t feel like there’s anything that is hiding that could be found out, that will make you love me less.
Debbie Millman:
Glennon, you’ve written about how women are taught that the deep underlying belief about what we want is that if what we want hurts people, it must be bad and dangerous. And I was really thinking about this in relation to the dynamic between you and what you both do. And I started to wonder about how that relates to sports. And Abby, I was wondering if that notion flies in the face of being a competitive athlete, demanding the ball, and wanting to win. Does that ever come into conflict with wanting to be generous, or wanting to give other people the opportunity to do well? Do you ever feel that you need to share that?
Abby Wambach:
That’s a really important question because the answer is and both. The answer is both things can be true at the same time, that you want to win. You want to be the best that you can be. You want ambition. You want money. Whatever it is. And you can also want it for the people to your right and left. The time that I spent on the women’s national team was so important, not just for me, but it’s important for the world, because they’re trying to revolutionize how leadership can actually evolve, and go out, and be true in the world.
Abby Wambach:
So, our women’s national team, the way that it’s built is to push each other. And by pushing each other, by not being afraid of competition, of competing, of putting it all on the line, not being afraid of that allows you to make gains. So, for instance, we’ll go into a practice and we’ll be competing, but we’re not competing against each other. We’re competing with each other. And that is a totally different ball game. Because when you’re competing with each other, it gives me an opportunity. Alex Morgan scores a goal. I’m like, “Awesome, great job.” It’s forcing me to turn up my volume a little bit.
Abby Wambach:
“Oh, this is where I got to step up.” And most people in the world they’re jealous. They look at that moment and they’re like, “Gosh, she always scores. Why doesn’t she give me the ball?” And all of that is internal insecurity. So, building leadership platforms of people who aren’t afraid to put it all out in the line, to be secure enough in themselves, that they don’t have to find jealousy, or, “Oh, what are they getting that I’m not?”
Abby Wambach:
It’s like, “Oh, then just figure it out yourself.” [inaudible 00:37:11] said, and I’m paraphrasing here, but we’re trying to break through this glass ceiling of a house that a man built. She’s like, “I’m just going to be over here building my own house.” That is what leadership is. And we need to encourage women and men alike to see each other, and to witness their successes, and not try to replicate them. But just say, “Turn up your own volume a little bit.”
Debbie Millman:
Did you read Megan Rapinoe’s piece about the WNBA, and Sue, and her sense that this whole league is doing so much activism. And we need to be paying attention to that. It really gave me the sense that we were all in this together somehow.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I think that is a very true, important thing to note. That the WNBA has been-
Abby Wambach:
Doing it.
Glennon Doyle:
Has been saying things, doing things. They’re the women-
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. They’re living it. They’re just living it.
Glennon Doyle:
They’re at the intersection of the sexuality, the race, the women … They are the ones to be watching.
Abby Wambach:
And that’s why we folks have to check ourselves. Why aren’t they as popular-
Glennon Doyle:
As the national-
Abby Wambach:
… As the women’s national soccer team?
Glennon Doyle:
… The national team, soccer team. Because they’re not white. Yeah. Who do we hold up to our children as heroes, and why isn’t it those women?
Debbie Millman:
One of the things that I loved about preparing for this interview was seeing the commonalities in your lives even before you met. Another commonality you both share is sobriety. You’ve talked about that a little bit. Glennon, you’ve said this about the experience. You said, “Since I got sober, I’ve never been fine again, not for a single moment. I’ve been exhausted, and terrified, and angry. I’ve been overwhelmed, and underwhelmed, depressed, and anxious. I’ve been amazed, and awed, and delighted, and overjoyed. I have been alive.” And so, I get the sense that you don’t ever really want to be fine and want to feel everything. Is that right?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I mean, I think it’s also a scenario in which you just decide what you can’t have, and you just don’t choose it. I’m never going to be fine. That is not my experience since I was a kid. I think this is why I ended up in addiction, is that I had very high highs and low lows. And I was a deeply sensitive kid, and still am. And food just numbed that out until I found alcohol, which was an even better, stronger number. And then all the other things. So, I think that you just figure out by the time you’re in your 40s, hopefully, that you are who you are, and you’re not going to change it. So, I’m not going to spend the rest of my life trying to be, what? Calm. I’m not going to try to be calm or fine.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m just going to see that there are gifts in it. Like the sensitivity that led me into addiction is also the sensitivity that makes me a good artist. And the fire that I have, which anxiety, whatever that makes me have hard times, and it makes me sweaty, but it also makes me a good activist. So, I think for me, it’s a matter of working with what you have. And figuring out that sometimes the thing that you’ve been told is your weakness, your whole life, is actually your strength.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. Actually, something that you wrote in Untamed is something that really stopped me. And I thought about it a lot. One thing that people seem most to avoid is heartbreak. In fact, I once had a student tell me he was afraid to pursue his dreams because if he failed, he would die of heartbreak. And yet, you say, heartbreak is not something to be avoided. It’s something to pursue. Heartbreak is one of the greatest clues of our lives. And I just wanted to ask if you can talk about, in what way? How can we use our heartbreak to fuel our future?
Glennon Doyle:
My job, basically, for the last 15 years has just been to listen deeply to women. That’s what I do. And it feels to me like what women want the most is purpose, and their people. They want purpose and connection. What if I die without finding my purpose? What if I die without ever finding my people?
Debbie Millman:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You know? And what I-
Debbie Millman:
Fulfilling my potential.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And what I notice about people who have found both is it’s always people who have figured out what makes them angry, what makes them heartbroken? What makes them … It’s like the thing they can’t stand in the world, and then they stand there. Right? What is so unique about people is that what breaks everybody’s heart is different. For some people it’s animal rights. And for some people it’s hunger. For some people it’s war. And for some people it’s racial injustice. And then, what I find is that when people can sit with that, and get curious about it, instead of just hot potato in your way, when they can ask themselves, “Okay, where are the people in the world who are working to change this thing that breaks my heart?”
Glennon Doyle:
And then, they go towards those people. They find their purpose and their people. It’s like in the very thing that we … We’re so obsessed with happy in this culture. “It makes me happy. Follow my bliss.” Okay. Well, we don’t investigate the more uncomfortable feelings because there’s no bond. I know this because of my work with Together Rising. There’s no bond that is stronger than the bond that happens among people who are doing the same world-changing work. It’s just in our culture, we don’t teach people how to interrogate, and get curious about discomfort. Envy is another one of those ones we all avoid, and we feel ashamed of it. But what I have found is I’m only envious of the people who are doing the thing that I want to do.
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely, I see it as an alarm bell. Absolutely.
Glennon Doyle:
Debbie, when I was drinking all the time, if somebody handed me a book that was written by a woman, and it was beautiful, it would make me sick. It was like looking straight at the sun, because there was a part of me that knew that a braver, healthier version of myself could do that.
Abby Wambach:
She did.
Glennon Doyle:
I did it. Finally [crosstalk 00:43:18]-
Debbie Millman:
You did.
Glennon Doyle:
I did it. I did it. I did it. I did that. It was my best.
Debbie Millman:
So, I’m conscious of time. I have about another hour’s worth of questions that I prepared to ask you, but I’m going to try to cull it down to two questions from the audience that they sent me from the Institute, and this Speaker Series. And then, I’ll have one last question for you from me. So, I’ll ask those two questions first. This is from our audience for Glennon. “I can imagine that throughout your life, you’ve experienced backlash and hate from some people. When you feel scared or unsure about sharing parts of your life with the world, where do you draw your courage from?”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s a beautiful question. So, I have to say that the answer to that question is that I see all of life, whether it’s my family life, my work life, I see everything through the lens of sobriety, through the lens of recovery. I spent the first, well, from the time that I was 10 to the time that I was 26, very, very sick in addiction. And when I got sober, I learned from the people in the circles that the only way to stay healthy is to be ashamed of nothing, to be ashamed of no part of your humanity. And what I also learned in those circles when I listened is that we’re all the freaking same. That there’s no deep fear, or deep anxiety, or deep, terrible thing I’ve done that a million other people haven’t done.
Glennon Doyle:
That the more personal we get, the more true we get, the more universal we are. So, what I try to remember all the time is that my one thing, my one thing in the world is not to be liked. It’s not to be accepted. My one thing is to stay sober. And the way that I know how to stay sober is to not have secrets. And that doesn’t mean not have any privacy, but it means to not keep anything inside me that feels dark and shameful. Because what I’ve learned is that over and over again, if I take that thing out into the light, a bunch of people say, “Hey, me too.” And then, it’s 10 million times less scary.
Glennon Doyle:
So, and the other thing that I know to be true for me is that when I look at women who are living out loud, and to me, doing important work, moving us forward, every single one of them receives backlash and what we would call hate. So, I would feel afraid if I stopped seeing any of that. I would feel like I was no longer doing my job.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. If you stop hearing any criticism, then you know that-
Glennon Doyle:
I got to level up.
Abby Wambach:
That nobody’s upset. You go to upset [crosstalk 00:46:18] people, the right amount. You got to upset the right amount of people.
Glennon Doyle:
The right people. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
And this is the question for Abby. In what ways do you feel the sports world, both professional and collegiate athletics can do more to support the mental health of their athletes?
Abby Wambach:
Oh gosh. I mean everything.
Glennon Doyle:
By doing anything?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. By doing something. It’s hard because they just focus on the physical, really. We had a sports psychologist that focused on team-building, but never really harped in on the individual’s mental health, just their overall mental health capabilities and whatnot. So, for me, I think pro sports, I think sports in general, we have to make sure we remember that these robots, these humans that we’re putting through all of these physical cases are people too. And it’s a really tricky battle because we just watched this Michael Phelps documentary, Weight and Gold … Is that what it’s called? And essentially, it’s this whole documentary about Olympic athletes really suffering from mental illness, and mental differences. And the truth is, is you got to be a little bit loony to do something like that for so long, and to sacrifice your body, and to sacrifice family time.
Abby Wambach:
There’s probably some truth to the fact that all pro athletes have a little bit of mental health stuff going on. So, we have to actually dedicate some resources to de-stigmatizing the idea that you might be weak if in fact you do have some of these mental health stuff. Because I went through it towards the end of my career. I just wasn’t prepared to retire mentally, and financially, which caused some mental health stuff. What am I going to do? How am I going to do it? All the things. So, I think that if I could give the sports world any advice, it would be to invest in resources for the mental health of their athletes, because it will help longterm. You’re going to have fewer people committing suicide. And not to mention, sports are inherently dangerous. They’re physically dangerous.
Abby Wambach:
And if you have any head trauma involved in your sport, it’s increasing the chances of some of those mental illnesses affecting that person later on in their lives. And we have to start talking about it with our children. How did that feel? Not brushing things under the rug. Not saying like, “Oh, toughen up.”
Glennon Doyle:
Toughen up.
Debbie Millman:
Walk it off.
Abby Wambach:
Put some dirt on it. It’s like, no, we actually have to help our kids learn how to deal with the mental struggles, and the emotional struggles of being in a team environment or a sport environment.
Debbie Millman:
It’s hard to imagine given how many times humans get colds, or even just any random ailment, to think that at some point in your life you’re not going to be affected by mental illness. It just doesn’t seem even remotely possible to be able to avoid that.
Abby Wambach:
Actually a really good point.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s silly. It’s very silly. And I think getting to the point where we understand that physical health isn’t just for physically sick people, and mental health isn’t just for mentally ill. We all have a mind-
Debbie Millman:
Right. Yeah, it’s brain health.
Glennon Doyle:
… Which we all learn to nurture and take care of it.
Abby Wambach:
And we’re all mentally different.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I don’t like calling myself mentally ill. It feels like-
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, you have to come up with a new word.
Glennon Doyle:
… I suffer from depression and anxiety. And mentally ill makes it seem like I’m about to get better. I am not, Debbie. I am not.
Abby Wambach:
Or you’re sick. Or you’re really, really sick.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
It’s like, I don’t know. I think we just have to come up with better language.
Debbie Millman:
I agree.
Abby Wambach:
[crosstalk 00:50:04] people. So, figure it out.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, Debbie will figure it out.
Debbie Millman:
Okay, we’ll rebrand this. So, the last thing I want to talk to you about, if you’re willing, is sex.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, okay.
Abby Wambach:
Fun stuff.
Debbie Millman:
So, Glennon, this is what you wrote about sex pre-Abby, in Untamed. “Sex in a marriage is like an oil change. You just have to keep doing it to keep things running smoothly.” And later on, you go on to state that, “Sex was a stage. And I was the player. I knew how to be desired. I did not know desire. I knew how to be wanted. I did not know how to want.” Then when you talked about this lack of joy with your ex-husband, your therapist asked you, “If you had tried giving him blowjobs instead … ” She stated that many women found blowjobs to be less intimate. You then promptly left the therapist.
Glennon Doyle:
I did, Debbie. I did.
Debbie Millman:
So, my question to you is this. And it’s a really serious one. And one that I have personal interest in understanding. My question is, how did you learn desire?
Abby Wambach:
This, I want to know.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Abby Wambach:
I love that we’re talking about this stuff.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that desire was what I felt during the, there she is moment. I think the thing woke up in me that was like, “I want her.” It wasn’t like, “I want her to want me.” Which is how I had always understood this situation of like how you partner up, and how you just find somebody who checks your boxes, and then you try to get them to like you. And then whatever. It was a visceral like, “I want her.” And then, it just kept getting more and more intense. Oh my God.
Debbie Millman:
Well, especially, all those months leading up the anticipation.
Glennon Doyle:
[crosstalk 00:52:08].
Debbie Millman:
Oh my God, you must’ve destroyed that hotel room.
Glennon Doyle:
Debbie, it was so intense. It was so intense. And then, in the first … And this is making her crazy because she gets so embarrassed to talk about this stuff.
Abby Wambach:
In public, not in private. And she-
Glennon Doyle:
Right. I can’t talk about it in private, Debbie.
Abby Wambach:
So weird.
Glennon Doyle:
When she [crosstalk 00:52:28]-
Debbie Millman:
That’s so interesting. Oh my God. That’s so interesting.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s just sad to me. It’s like I’m embarrassed to talk about it one-on-one. I don’t know. Anyway-
Debbie Millman:
Well, that’s the whole notion of asking about desire because there seems to be some shame in wanting things, in asking for what you want, and in engaging in that pleasure.
Abby Wambach:
That’s a deep-rooted, something that all women have to deal with. Going after what you want, and be [crosstalk 00:52:55]-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, and saying it. And yeah. So, then, the first time that we were together in the hotel room, it was the first time that desire completely took over, and that I was not acting. I didn’t even understand what sex was without acting. Meaning that when I was … I’m so sorry. I’m going to say this. When I was having sex previously, which didn’t happen.
Abby Wambach:
Which didn’t-
Glennon Doyle:
What I would say to myself was, “Okay, this is how I’m supposed to be. This is the noises I’m supposed to be making. This is how I’m supposed to be moving. This is what I should do, or say, or-
Abby Wambach:
We get it.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Moving on.
Glennon Doyle:
And then, with Abby … And by the way, I’m just going to say this-
Abby Wambach:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I’m going to say this to Debbie, because look at her. She’s so fantastic. And I’ve just forgotten that there’s a lot of other people listening. But I think that since Abby was the more experienced lesbian in the relationship, meaning she had any experience, I think we both assumed that when we finally got together in that hotel room that she would be the-
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God. I can’t [crosstalk 00:54:06]-
Glennon Doyle:
… One taking over. And that was not the case, Debbie.
Debbie Millman:
Wow. Awesome.
Glennon Doyle:
That was surprising for you, huh? Yes. Okay. Now, you go.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know what the question was.
Glennon Doyle:
Desire.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You’ve never had an issue with that.
Abby Wambach:
No, I never bought into that, the whole Adam and Eve fairytale fable, that women aren’t supposed to go after what they want. I’ve always been of the mind that there’s going to be things that are going to be harder because I’m a woman, but I sure as hell am always going to go for what I want. And then, being in an environment like the women’s national team, where you-
Glennon Doyle:
Do you see how you asked her about sex, and she’s talking about the national team, just note it, Debbie.
Abby Wambach:
I’m a professional. I’m a professional [crosstalk 00:54:49]-
Debbie Millman:
Noted.
Glennon Doyle:
She’s going to soccer.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Well, look, if you’re around people, and the world tells you your whole life, you shouldn’t want this. You shouldn’t have this. We just were like, “Whatever. We don’t care if you’re telling us we can’t have what we want, we’re going to go ahead and go build it anyway.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, that’s true.
Abby Wambach:
And so, that’s what we did. And as it relates to sex, I definitely was surprised that you took more of a leadership role in that way.
Glennon Doyle:
Leadership role.
Debbie Millman:
I love it. We’re going full circle here in so many ways.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. But I also think that that was important for you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, it was.
Abby Wambach:
That was a truth and reality that had to come to life to make this situation that we were getting into more real, and truer, and more beautiful.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, because it was like, “I want you. I’m going to be led by my desire here.” And not even let you take over.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. So, interesting.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Debbie Millman:
No, I love it. You are both such an extraordinary inspiration. Thank you so much for doing so much good in the world with your work, for sharing your ideas about love, and power, and sex. And thank you so much for joining me today on this very special episode of Design Matters for the New York State Writers Institute, and the University of Albany Speaker Series.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you, Debbie. What a dream this was.
Abby Wambach:
Seriously, thank you so much.
Debbie Millman:
Thank you.
Abby Wambach:
Your questions were beautiful. Thank you.
Debbie Millman:
Thank you. Glennon Doyle’s latest book is the number one New York Times Bestselling, Untamed. And Abby Wambach’s latest book is the number one New York Times Best Seller, Wolfpack: How to Come Together, Unleash Our Power, and Change the Game. They also together run Together Rising. A nonprofit for women and children in crisis. You could read more about their work there at togetherrising.org. This is the 16th year we’ve been podcasting Design Matters. And I’d like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference, or we can do both. I’m Debbie Millman. And I look forward to talking with you again soon.
Speaker 1:
Design Matters is produced for the TED Family of Podcasts by Curtis Fox Productions. In non-pandemic times, the show is recorded at the School of Visual Arts, Masters in Branding Program in New York City. The first and longest running branding program in the world. The editor in chief of Design Matters media is Zachary Petit, and the art director is Emily Weiland.