Writer and producer Starlee Kine joins LIVE at the 2022 On Air Fest to talk about her remarkable career and hit podcast Mystery Show.
Debbie Millman:
Hello, Starlee.
Starlee Kine:
Hi.
Debbie Millman:
This past New Year’s day, my wife and I were channel surfing and came upon a marathon airing on the Sundance channel of one of my favorite television shows as I was growing up. And we not only spent the rest of the day engrossed in the show, but we ended up watching the entire 10 seasons over the course of the rest of the month. All of January was dedicated to this show. The show was Columbo, which in my research, I discovered that when you were in the second grade, you were not only obsessed with Columbo. You wanted to be Columbo and even dressed up as Columbo in school.
So, I was wondering if, because I think that there are a lot of really young people in this audience, if you could describe the show and the character a little bit to our audience today.
Starlee Kine:
The show Columbo. I feel like people do watch it maybe now. Yeah. Because it’s very comforting. It’s very comforting.
Debbie Millman:
There was a smattering of applause.
Starlee Kine:
It’s cool though. It is cool. I’ve watched it so much since… I re-watched it so many times. It is. It definitely is a cool show. He’s very rumpled and smart and authentic. He’s got incredible instincts. And he’s like this like shaggy detective who likes the same coat, often his coat. Well, they try to take his coat away from him and he needs the same, he needs his coat. I feel like for such a shambling figure, he’s actually quite at home everywhere he goes. And everyone is trying to, they underestimate him, but they also do want his approval.
He’s great. He’s iconic. He’s so wonderful. Columbo was one of the few shows that I found I could watch during the pandemic. There was a lot that I thought I would be able to watch and I couldn’t, and then I kept coming back to it.
Debbie Millman:
One thing that I loved when I discovered was that the final episode, the stars of the final episode, and he had the best guest stars, were actually not even born when the show first started.
Starlee Kine:
Really?
Debbie Millman:
Yeah.
Starlee Kine:
The like later, when it was like the ’80s?
Debbie Millman:
The last episode that aired featured guest stars that hadn’t even been born when the show first began. That’s how long it had been on the air.
Starlee Kine:
But it stopped for a little while. There was a break.
Debbie Millman:
It did. It did.
Starlee Kine:
He had the coolest people on because it was when TV was not considered cool. And so, because he was cool and because he was from Cassavetes movies, he was able to get people on that were actually cooler than TV could get.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, absolutely. Johnny Cash.
Starlee Kine:
Johnny Cash episode is incredible. It’s one of the best.
Debbie Millman:
Just so you know, we’re going to talk about Columbo the whole hour.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. It’s really good though. Also, Columbo is 75 minutes long without the commercials. So, they really do feel like films. And the whole beginning when you see the murder, commit the murder is so, it just takes its time to unravel and you really get these character studies that’s unlike any show I’ve ever seen. Sometimes, it’s like 20 minutes in that beginning.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, at least sometimes longer before he even shows up.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. And so, you just get this whole story, and the settings, it’s really hard to come up with like good set pieces and the worlds of Columbo like every time you’re just like, “I want to be in that world. I want to be in that world. I want to be in that world.” It’s amazing. I refer to it, when I’m writing stuff, not just with mystery show, but for other stuff, I always come back to it.
Debbie Millman:
Well, you said that you liked the slow pacing and also the way they used music in this show.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. I like the pacing. I don’t think it’s slow. I just think it’s patient and takes its time. I just think it’s allowed to breathe and actually have character development in a way that like most things are not.
Debbie Millman:
Only two more questions about Columbo and then we’ll move on.
Starlee Kine:
It’s so good.
Debbie Millman:
The first is, do you remember the episode with Kim Cattrall?
Starlee Kine:
Whoa.
Debbie Millman:
So, there we are watching. And then, all of a sudden it’s like a brunette young Kim Cattrall. She plays this college student ingénue.
Starlee Kine:
Was that a later one?
Debbie Millman:
No.
Starlee Kine:
Earlier.
Debbie Millman:
Mid.
Starlee Kine:
Mid.
Debbie Millman:
Mid.
Starlee Kine:
The ones I rewatched the most are the… well, I skip around because there’s gems in all the seasons. I don’t remember.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. It’s worth seeing. I’ll send you a link to that episode. And then, the last question is you said you identified with Columbo.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. I definitely identify with him now. I’ve never shaken, I guess the identifying, but I do when I was little, I was so drawn to Columbo and I did dress up. I did a whole school report as Columbo, but it wasn’t about Columbo. It was playing him, like I identified as Columbo. And so, I totally came to class and I think it was an unrelated thing. It wasn’t about mysteries. It wasn’t about TV. It was like a book report or something. But I was in character. And I always loved him.
But I didn’t know how cool it was. So, I didn’t know how cool Peter Falk was. It was a case of me being right without realizing it. Most of the things you like when you’re a kid aren’t the coolest stuff.
Debbie Millman:
He was in one of the funniest movies of all time, a movie called The In-Laws, with What’s Up, Doc, two of the funniest movies of the 20th century as far as I’m concerned.
Starlee Kine:
And he’s also in Wings of Desire, the Wender’s movie. But in that movie, he plays Peter Falk, and he’s an angel in it. And so, it’s saying that Peter Falk is an angel. It’s not saying the character’s an angel. So then, I was like, “This great reveal,” like Wim Wenders is like, I know I’m telling you guys, he’s actually an angel.
Debbie Millman:
Your mother for your 16th birthday got a Columbo impersonator for your party. And you were mortified.
Starlee Kine:
I was. I wonder when I said all this in interview.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, they’re in lots of different ones. This was great to find all of the Columbo connections.
Starlee Kine:
People did like to ask me about Columbo. Yeah, it was horrible. Because I was like, “Wait.” I just wasn’t at an age where I wanted an impersonator at a birthday party to be… I don’t know why. It was like having a clown at your 16, but it was crazy. It was horrible. It was really horrible. I’m sure I did not take it well and let her know for sure.
Debbie Millman:
You grew up in the suburbs of Los Angeles. Your father Richard Kine was an architect, but his original name was actually Norman Slabatkine.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Can you share the story of how his name migrated from Norman’s Slabatkine to Richard Kine?
Starlee Kine:
It’s so crazy. These are stories I haven’t thought about in so long. My mom renamed him. It’s not healthy. It’s not healthy. She was renaming, kept renaming everybody. So, she didn’t like his last name. I think she thought it seemed too Jewish even though Kine is often mistaken as Kind. Turning him into Richard Kine didn’t make him less Jewish seeming. I don’t know if she just didn’t like his last name. She didn’t think it spoke to her, I guess. And then, when she changed that she was drunk on power and then was like, “Why don’t we work on the first name too?” And then, chiseled away.
Debbie Millman:
Were you born Starlee Slabatkine?
Starlee Kine:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
And so, she legally changed your name as well?
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, my goodness.
Starlee Kine:
But I thought that was normal. We use to go to the courthouse and change. I don’t think it was healthy. It’s weird. I did a story about that for This American Life. And I feel like the longer you do stuff, like I would do that story so differently now than I did then. It is what I like about doing stories is that it marks where you are in time. Because now when I think of that, I’m like, “That’s so crazy that she did that.” But at the time, I think it felt, I don’t know. I think I still was coming at it more with a sense of humor, and I have a different perspective now.
Debbie Millman:
So, would you do it in a less whimsical way?
Starlee Kine:
No, I think you have to do it whimsically because that’s your point of entry, but I don’t know if I would do it, I guess. It’s just, I don’t know. Like it’s just, your interest change so much about what you tell stories about.
Debbie Millman:
You said that while growing up, the closest model you had to compare your mother to was Pepelepu.
Starlee Kine:
My mom. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Why?
Starlee Kine:
He’s been canceled. Because she was very clingy and it was very like much like Pepelepu, the canceled cartoon character. He has been, who would just like… My family in general was like that my grandmother would be like, “Come on, Bubi, that… It’s-
Debbie Millman:
Mine too.
Starlee Kine:
We’re a Pepelepu culture, people I feel. But when it’s your mom, you have less tolerance for it. And so, then, it just felt suffocating.
Debbie Millman:
Well, you’ve described having a sleepover at a friend’s house where inevitably your friend’s parents would receive a call around 3:00 in the morning from your mom asking if the parents wouldn’t mind holding up a mirror to your mouth to make sure you were still breathing.
Starlee Kine:
I know. It’s true. These really are stories from… But yeah, she was very overprotective.
Debbie Millman:
Did she really think you were going to die?
Starlee Kine:
I think, yeah, probably. I think she just thought life was very dangerous. And so, yeah, she was incredibly anxious.
Debbie Millman:
You’ve said that your mother was both overprotective and neglectful. And in a live production of This American Life, you stated that the overprotective parent produces an entitled, anxiety-ridden adult who is afraid of the world. The neglectful parent produces a self-sufficient self-loathing adult with abandonment issues. That’s me. The overprotective parent combined with the neglectful parent produces you.
Starlee Kine:
I feel like I’m more the neglected kid though in my own description, I guess of people. What did I say it left me is?
Debbie Millman:
You said the overprotective parent combined of which-
Starlee Kine:
What were the traits that I have now that I describe myself as?
Debbie Millman:
And I was actually wondering where you found these traits. Because it felt like, wow, she sees me. The overprotective parent produces an entitled, anxiety-ridden adult who is afraid of the world. Slightly worried about my nephew becoming that. Then neglectful parent produces a self-sufficient self-loathing adult with abandonment issues.
Starlee Kine:
But I’m much more that second one. Considering she was overprotective, I seem to have only now have the trait of the neglected child.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. Because I was wondering where that part came from. It didn’t seem like that to me in your self-description.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. It was probably like describing family members, but yeah, I’m not afraid of the world. Well, I think my little sister was more for a while anxious about the world. I feel like I reacted by being like, I’ll be fine. Like I’ll just cross the street and look at my phone and nothing will come from me. I’m not afraid of the world. But now the world is scary so I should be afraid of it.
Debbie Millman:
I know. It feels terrifying even more so in so many ways than March of 2020.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. Yes.
Debbie Millman:
As you were growing up, your mom started leading a secret double life that no one else in your family knew about. And when you were 28, you discovered that she had forged your signature to take out loans, get credit cards, get gym memberships, and it all totaled about $70,000 in debt in your name. What did you do when you found this out?
Starlee Kine:
I was working at This American Life. I didn’t like it. I don’t know. Like I tried to deal with it. I guess it was very surprising but also not that surprising. I think the main thing it did was make me feel like I couldn’t ever be financially stable. And so, then, I didn’t try to be for a long time because it felt like everything was ruined. But now, I’ve realized there was like, I didn’t know… I get so excited to check my credit now and stuff because I didn’t know you could actually do… there’s so many things.
When I finally did get my own credit card, I remember I just spent it to the limit. Because I was like, “That’s what this is for. Right?” Like I just wasn’t, not only did she do that, I wasn’t taught any tools and now I’m like, “Oh, there are actual things you can do.”
Debbie Millman:
How did you repair your credit? Did she ever pay you back?
Starlee Kine:
She never paid. Again, I got taken, like wiped away or like enough time passed or something. And then, my dad ended up eventually, like we paid off student loans. And then, now I just prepared my credit eventually but then even afterwards, there could have been a time when I repaired it quicker but I didn’t know how to, and now I do. And then, you just, I don’t know, I lived long enough that you get your credit. I don’t know. I just feel like I get very excited to checking my credit now, but I should have… it’s like, I feel like I have a 25-year-old credit when I should. It just took a long time.
Debbie Millman:
Right. Your parents broke up after 31 years of marriage. And after the divorce, your dad rekindled a romance with somebody that he had met 34 years before and wanted to marry but was turned down. Is he happy now?
Starlee Kine:
I don’t know. She’s not great. She turned out not to be great, but yeah, he’s probably happy.
Debbie Millman:
What name does he go by?
Starlee Kine:
I think I said in that story, either one, he really does go by either one. He likes them all. You can call him any, you could call him Richard or Norman, probably a third name. He would respond to all of it.
Debbie Millman:
And what’s your relationship-
Starlee Kine:
He’s a little bit, like I feel like a foster dog who gets renamed and you’re just like, they like probably respond to all of it.
Debbie Millman:
What is your relationship like with your mother now?
Starlee Kine:
Not great. Not, yeah.
Debbie Millman:
You attended New York University. You were a dramatic writing major, which you said was a stupid, really dumb major that shouldn’t exist as a major. What made you decide to go to NYU and why do you think that dramatic writing was such a stupid major?
Starlee Kine:
Well, the main thing about that department, I don’t know if it’s different now, but you just learned writing but you weren’t with the film program and you weren’t with the acting school. You were just writing. So, I feel like it should have been connected. And if anything, you should just go to school for film. I think no one should go to school for any of this when they’re young, but now it’s different because everyone learns stuff so much quicker when they’re young. That would’ve been my advice before.
Before, it used to be like go to school for something else and then you can do film whenever you want. But now everyone knows much more than we did when we were 18. Like you learn it quicker. So, I don’t know. And now a lot of people aren’t going to school at all. So, the advice is different. But I know with the film program, you can learn script writing and learn film. So, you should learn the technical parts of film while doing, just writing. That would be the main thing about that program.
Debbie Millman:
While you were in school, you-
Starlee Kine:
And also, probably go for playwriting, not screenwriting. Because you can get a job in TV easier if you’re a playwright than a screenwriter.
Debbie Millman:
Really? Why is that?
Starlee Kine:
Hollywood loves playwrights. It makes you stand out in a way that if you’re just like a screenwriter, it doesn’t. And playwriting is like a different craft. And I do think you learn probably narrative in a more interesting way. And so, that program was playwriting and screenwriting, and I kept switching between the two, but playwriting seems like a great thing to go to school for.
Debbie Millman:
Have you ever thought about writing a play?
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. It seems fun. I did write plays in college. It just, I didn’t know anything. Yeah. It seems great. I love plays.
Debbie Millman:
While you were in school, you had a neighbor, let’s call her Helga for the purposes of this interview and she thought you were a drug dealer.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Why did she think you were a drug dealer and what drugs did she think you were selling?
Starlee Kine:
She thought I was a drug kingpin, actually. She thought I was the head of all the drugs selling operations in the entire village. Because that’s what the sign would say. There was no reason that she thought I was a drug dealer. Nothing I did. I didn’t even do drugs. I don’t like drugs that much. I didn’t even really smoke weed because I don’t like it. But everyone else in the building did. This is the east village on seventh street between second and third.
I lived right next to her. We shared a wall. So, I think whoever was going to be in there, she was going to decide was a drug kingpin. And she really was determined about it. She tried to frame us, tried to… like she dedicated her life to taking me down.
Debbie Millman:
She also put up at least one note about you in the building every single day. Sometimes she put up as many as seven or eight warning the other neighbors about your drug dealing. She put them on the front door, over the mailboxes, on her door, on your door. You weren’t selling drugs. Nobody in your apartment was selling drugs. She was lying. Why do you think she hated you so much?
Starlee Kine:
She didn’t hate me. I really think she was obsessed. It wasn’t hatred. It really wasn’t. It was like, she really in her mind thought that we were… I had a roommate. I had different roommate come in now. One of them, she just wrote to me. She would put them up… She would cut these flyers out, like these neon rave flyers that she would find. That’s what she wrote the signs on in marker and she hung them up with gum.
And she was so consumed by it. But I really don’t think it was personal. There was nothing we did in the beginning that would make her think that, like that would set her off. And also, I would live right by NYU and Cooper Union. The building was filled with kids and Adriana from Sopranos.
Debbie Millman:
Yes.
Starlee Kine:
So, it wasn’t like, she was like this one kid, these one college kids are the problem. Like my neighbors across the hall smoked so much weed, and you would open the door and you would just see the smoke come out of the thing. And they were art students, and she didn’t have any problem with them. And so, it was just that she decided that there was like this threat in the building that I really don’t think was personally tied to me or my roommates. And she took it upon herself to take care of it. If it had been someone else for a different reason, you could have been like, oh, look, she has her cause, but it was just not true at all. She was delusional.
Debbie Millman:
You decided to make a video documentary about her on the fly for what you called a janky class you were taking at NYU. What was the plot of the video?
Starlee Kine:
That class was like, yeah. Oh, I owe everything to that class. It was just a documentary. I interviewed my neighbors about her. I confronted her in the hallway. I filmed through the fish-eye or the peep hole of my neighbors to catch her in the act of putting up a sign. My friend Morry wrote a song about her. I don’t know. We thought we were so clever. That documentary is on VHS, so I haven’t seen it in forever and ever. I bought these little toys and I did like a reenactment. That’s the part that makes me cringe when I think about because I was absorbing all the films I was seeing.
So, I bought these toys at this place on avenue, between sixth and fifth street, there was this shop that sold all these little toys, like little plastic toys. And I remember there was this toy with a little girl dangling from her arms that you press the sides and she would spin around. And then, I had another toy. I did a reenactment with voices where she would spin around and kick the old lady. And I still have that toy or I did before I moved out. Yeah. But I thought I was so proud of stuff like that.
Debbie Millman:
But what does it make you cringe now? It actually sounds really wonderful.
Starlee Kine:
I’m sure it got a certain charm to it. Because I probably thought, I don’t know. I just couldn’t picture the quality of it. Yeah. I thought I was just revolutionary, and I was I guess, but it just, yeah. I don’t know.
Debbie Millman:
Well, it certainly, as you said, that class changed your life. At the time-
Starlee Kine:
Well, not anything taught in the class, just making that thing led to This American Life.
Debbie Millman:
And so, let’s talk about that. At the time you were working at Shakespeare and Company. It’s a bookstore. And one of your coworkers showed it to Paul Tough who was one of the founding producers of This American Life. And Paula ended up doing a story about you and Helga who he took very seriously. He seemed to think that though the story was crazy that she really seemed sincere about her feelings. How did you feel about all of that happening at that time? What did it feel like?
Starlee Kine:
I was so excited. Shakespeare and Company was a bookstore across NYU. It’s not related to the Paris Shakespeare and Company. It’s totally bizarre that they just called themselves Shakespeare and Company. But it was a great bookstore. I used to like have my coworkers come over. I worked with all these great people, and then we would sometimes go to my building after work and we would go up to roof access and we’d have barbecues on the roof. And I would play the video. And then, you could watch the video and you could go into the hallway, and she would open the door, the old lady and shine her flashlight out.
It was like a ride, like because she was like 24/7 consumed with me. And so, she would literally like open it and be like, like you darn kids thing. And then, that woman, I think it was Colleen told Paul. This American Life was just starting. I don’t know what would’ve happened to me if I hadn’t met him because I don’t know what I was planning to do with my life. I didn’t know anything about radio. I didn’t know anything about NPR.
And then, he came over, interviewed me and we really hit it off. Really had a connection. And I was like, “This is great. I’ll just do what he does. This guy is great.” And I did.
Debbie Millman:
So, you began as an intern after college at This American Life.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. And the internship was like, it still is. It’s like apprenticeship. I think they call it apprenticeship now. At the time, it was six months. Mine ended up being seven-month long. And you move to Chicago, you get paid.
Debbie Millman:
And you recorded your first story for the show about the Hollywood Forever Cemetery on a tape recorder kit you bought off EBay.
Starlee Kine:
Is that my first story? Yeah, I did. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
They didn’t give you a kit?
Starlee Kine:
I don’t know. They did give me a kit. After the internship ended, I bought my own kit so I could have my own. I bought it off eBay because it was cheaper. So, I’m sure they gave me… When I went and recorded that story, there was a producer with me and she had a kit, and then I was like, “I’ll take my kit.”
Debbie Millman:
Tell us about your kit.
Starlee Kine:
It didn’t work. Everything we recorded was blank. Every single thing.
Debbie Millman:
Your first show for This American Life.
Starlee Kine:
I guess. So, I had done these Man on the Street interviews before with these kids when I was an intern. But yeah, my first, like it was supposed to be my first story.
Debbie Millman:
How did Ira Glass respond to the kit being-
Starlee Kine:
He was really nice about it. He was super, super nice. I was really upset. What he was upset about was that I had waited so long to start transcribing the audio because I was supposed to be… But that was because I was afraid it was bad. I was afraid that I had recorded bad stuff. And so, I didn’t want to hear if it was… I was putting off hearing my bad audio, which I’m sure wasn’t bad. But he couldn’t understand why anybody would ever put off doing that. But I think we have different brains.
But he was really, really, really understanding about me using a kit that was blank. He said it happens. And I think he told me maybe a story where it happened to him. He was incredibly understanding about that part.
Debbie Millman:
What’s the biggest thing you learned from him?
Starlee Kine:
Ira? He is really good at lots of things, but he really believes in people’s voices. Actually, it might not seem the case. I don’t know if it does. Maybe it does. But like if he thinks you’ve got a voice, an individual voice that he likes, his gift is protecting it and helping bring it out. He’s not trying to bulldoze over it. He’s not trying to be like, this is what I would write. This is what I would write. He really likes to sit with you. My favorite moments with Ira was when he’s really into a story that you’re doing and you go into his office and you just sit together.
Like This American Life always says, I need to stare at this, which is what I always say now. And he’s really good at the staring. And then, you come back. When he’s into a story, it’s very, very fun. And then, he just likes to work on every line. And he’ll often, at least with me, he would have me talk stuff out and I would have lines written that didn’t sound, like they sounded stiff or something. And then, he would have me talk and he would listen really closely. And then, when he hears the thing that is the special thing, he puts it in the story, but it’s your voice.
And he’ll do the same with emails. When I would email a pitch for a story and if the script turned it into something, again, more stiff, he would go into the email and be like, “The way you said it here, when you were relaxed and casual, that… Because that is the tone of This American Life. And he would get that and he would put it in.
And he’s incredible about structure too, like his brain. And my brain works like that too. I love structuring stuff. But I would say, like what the value of a voice is what I learn from him. And I do when I work with other people. I apply that when I try to help other people.
Debbie Millman:
One of your most famous pieces aired on August 24th, 2007 was titled Dr. Phil. After being dumped by your then boyfriend, Anthony, on New Year’s Eve, you find so much comfort in breakup songs that you decide to try and write one yourself, even though you have no musical ability or as you’ve said, no music ability whatsoever. So, you solicit some help from Phil Collins. What made you decide to choose Phil Collins?
Starlee Kine:
You mean for the story?
Debbie Millman:
Yeah.
Starlee Kine:
How could it be anyone else? He was the one I was listening to.
Debbie Millman:
Well, it could have been Michael Bolton.
Starlee Kine:
But I wasn’t listening to Michael Bolton. No. The whole thing is I really don’t like gimmicks. I don’t like stunts gimmicks, not like jackass and stuff. I always bump when I hear someone force a stunt. It could definitely not even Michael Bolton. It had to be him because he’s the one I quoted when Anthony broke up with me. He was the one we were listening to all the time. I remember when we were doing that story, Alex Bloomberg, who was producing it suggested Billy Joel. And I was like, “No. It’s got to be Phil Collins,” who’s in the story.
And it would’ve just felt like random and it just wouldn’t have been this. It would’ve been an interview as opposed to me seeking out an answer from the only person who could help me and who was the only person in the world who understood my pain. It was him.
Debbie Millman:
What is your favorite Phil Collins song?
Starlee Kine:
I guess Against All Odds.
Debbie Millman:
Really? Mine’s One More Night.
Starlee Kine:
Sure.
Debbie Millman:
It’s a great song.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. But I also had never gone through a Phil Collins phase until that relationship.
Debbie Millman:
Were you into Genesis with Peter Gabriel?
Starlee Kine:
I wasn’t into any. We would just listen. Anthony was into, I don’t even know if he was into Phil Collins. We went through this phase somehow. He had started listening to it, him, and we were listening to Phil Collins, not Genesis. And we would listen to that song over and over and over again. Because, I don’t know. It’s not the relationship being now, but it was the relationship where Anthony would play music and we would just listen to these songs over and over. And I cared about the songs because I was obsessed with everything Anthony did. And so, I’d watch him.
It was a very boy listening to his music stuff but I enjoyed it because I was so entranced by the entire… It was like that stage of relationship, but it wasn’t like I’d ever really thought about Phil Collins before that. And then, I was like, “He’s the one I have to talk to, obviously.”
Debbie Millman:
It’s one of the, still to this day, one of the most popular This American Life episodes in its long history. Why do you think people love it so much?
Starlee Kine:
I think because people can relate to it. Most people have gone through a breakup on one side or the other or experienced heartbreak. I think people really like love stories. They love breakup songs. I think Phil Collins is incredible in it. And there’s something for everyone, I guess, in it. Even if you’ve never been in a relationship, if you like Phil Collins, he does not disappoint. And I love that people like him so much from it. I like the feeling. A lot of times people were like, “I didn’t know… they hadn’t given him credit and then they’d come away liking him a lot. And that’s great.
Debbie Millman:
He is wonderful in the episode. And you do write a song which he critiques and likes. How do you feel about the song now?
Starlee Kine:
I haven’t listened to it in so long. I probably would like it okay. I hear it in my head a lot. I say the lyrics in my head to myself quite often, which is surprising, but I haven’t actually listened to it in so long.
Debbie Millman:
So, you’ve already said you hate gimmicks, but is there any chance you might say some of the lyrics now?
Starlee Kine:
That’s not a gimmick. A gimmick is like just trying too hard. A gimmick is inauthentic. The thing about that story was I wasn’t trying to do the most popular This American Life story. I wasn’t trying to go viral. I was so sad, like truly so sad. And I hadn’t conceived with that story as This American Life story, to begin with. Like I was totally heartbroken, truly was listening to breakup songs. 24/7. 100% was like the only way out of this is for me to learn how to write this song because I felt so powerless and so frustrated.
And Anthony wouldn’t talk to me. Everything I say in that story is how I felt. And I tried to take this like songwriting class at a NYU extension that was really weird. And then, I mentioned to This American Life. I did pitch it, but it wasn’t like… and also, I don’t think I even meant to talk to Phil Collins in the original pitch. The original idea was to write this song. I can’t remember if he was part of the original pitch, but it wasn’t like me being like it… I was feeling it. I was in the throes of feeling that sadness.
When I wrote to Phil Collins, I was sad. He wrote back to me because he said he did not know what This American Life was. One of my favorite things about it is that he was not trying too hard either. He wasn’t trying to get points. He wasn’t trying to get cred. It’s like all these celebrities are on podcasts now, but it was a different time and he did not know what the show was at all. And he said he wrote back to me because I was so sad that he genuinely wanted to help me, which I think is the greatest thing in the world.
And it’s why he’s the way he is in that. Because he’s just not trying to prove himself to anybody. And I think it just makes such a different, and so that’s what I mean about the stunt. It’s in a very authentic story in that way.
Debbie Millman:
Will you share some of the lyrics?
Starlee Kine:
I think the one I say to myself is it doesn’t do me any good. In fact, it does me bad. That’s I feel like I hear in my head, that’s one I hear in my head a lot. And then, I’m okay with second best. Just love me more and love her less, which I think is such pathetic lyric, that I say to myself a lot too. It’s crazy that it’s like rattling around in there without me hearing, without me listening to the song.
Debbie Millman:
Something that Phil said at the end of the episode has really stayed with me. He said that he wrote some of his best love songs while also suffering from heartbreak. And at the end of the episode, you ask him if it was better to have the song in the end or the relationship. And he says he’d rather have had the relationship. What about you now and all this time has passed? Would you rather have had the song or the relationship?
Starlee Kine:
I think I’d rather have the song than that relationship. I don’t know if it’s better to have… That’s what it always comes back to is it better to have made this stuff or to have the stuff in life and not have the record of it. I don’t know. I’m not sure. I am glad I have that story over that relationship now. And I’m glad it’s document of my feelings then, but I don’t know. I do think about that a lot. I do think what’s the point of, like what does matter the most.
Debbie Millman:
And Anthony never weighed in on the song. I think you saw him once on the subway after.
Starlee Kine:
Did I say this all in an interview? What is wrong with me? Why do I talk? That’s crazy that I said all this stuff and it’s just out there in the world. That’s crazy to me now.
Debbie Millman:
Sorry.
Starlee Kine:
No, I do think I can’t. Maybe it’s like-
Debbie Millman:
It’s not like it’s all over the place.
Starlee Kine:
But it must be. It’s like everything is, it’s shocking to me. I haven’t talked about any of the… like I don’t feel like I talk about myself that much anymore. Or maybe I’m wrong. Maybe, I’m delusional. I’m convinced he’s not heard it. Because I do think that when he hears it, he will contact me, but he’s never contacted me. I did see him in the subway. I don’t remember if the story was out when I… I remember it was like that when I saw him in the subway, it was the first night I had…
When you go through breakups, when you get broken up with at least, you have these terrible dreams about the person who broke up with you. And that’s a thing that happens to people. And I remember it was like, when I saw him in the subway, it was like the first night I hadn’t dreamt of him. And then, he was there and he was so cold and horrible to me. Like he literally on the train, he saw me and he turned away from me. Because that’s him.
It was just very much like, I don’t want to deal with this. And so, that’s why I think he hasn’t heard the song because he doesn’t want to think about himself or feelings he had. He was just so closed off. And so, that I think one day he will hear it. I maintain, it’s just like in the story, he’ll be old and he’ll find that CD or USB drive or whatever or thing in our heads that we will use to activate audio in the future.
He’ll hit his head and then podcast will play with a million ads first. And then, he’ll contact me probably with that same device. He’ll send me an email through that device.
Debbie Millman:
And you’ll be like, “Anthony who?”
Starlee Kine:
I wish. I did have an ex-boyfriend reach out to me recently. And it was so disappointing, but now I’m afraid of them reaching out to me.
Debbie Millman:
Why was it so disappointing?
Starlee Kine:
Because he was so sad, but not about me, like a sad… He said he was a sad dad who has problems finding the joy in his life. And he is like, I’m… but it don’t feel… it was like a really annoying email actually. Because I was like being fun. And I hadn’t heard from this guy in like 20 years or something, and I was like, “This is fun.” And he was someone that I had good memories of and was preserved. And then, suddenly I was like, “You know what it felt like? It felt like… And just like that. It felt like I love sex in the city and sex in the city’s legacy was so good. Even with the movies like that, the legacy of the show was still pretty intact.
Because you could be like, the movies aren’t canon, the movies aren’t canon, the show. And then, suddenly, like for some reason, they decide to do this. It destroys everything that came before. And that’s what I felt like you did. I was like, “Why are you doing this?” I was remembering you, somewhere in the world, somebody was remembering you as a winner.” And now you’re just like, what is going on?
And he was so aggressive about telling me how, like how much… He kept saying he was a downer, but it wasn’t like… I don’t know what he wanted from me because he wasn’t like, he wouldn’t really engage with me. He just wanted me to know how upset he was with his life. It was awful.
Debbie Millman:
Ooh.
Starlee Kine:
I know. It was really upsetting.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. And I feel the same way about and just like that, it really upset me.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah, I know.
Debbie Millman:
But I want to talk about your show. I want to talk about Mystery Show. In 2015, you launched really one of the greatest podcasts ever made. Right? Yes. Titled Mystery Show funded by Gimlet. You spent each episode solving a question that couldn’t be answered.
Starlee Kine:
Mystery. Well, not a question, a mystery.
Debbie Millman:
Solving a mystery that couldn’t be answered by Googling it. And you investigated a video store in Tribeca, which seemingly closed overnight, without your friend returning a copy of the movie Must Love Dogs, why Britney Spears was photographed holding one of your friends, fairly unsuccessful book, and so forth. And it was an immediate hit with the mysteries described as simultaneously banal and extraordinary. And in doing so ended up revealing far more than originally intended. Was that what you intended?
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. I intended for it to be… I feel like a lot of people are like the journey’s even more interesting than the solving. I wanted the solving to also be interesting. I wanted it all to be interesting, but I didn’t want it to be… I wanted you just to be engaged the entire time. That’s what I wanted.
Debbie Millman:
One thing that I kept finding over and over again in my research was people telling you at the time, oh, it’s so good, that Serial came out so that this could be happening. And it was like, no, this came out before Serial.
Starlee Kine:
It didn’t come out before Serial. I had the idea before Serial and I made the pilot before Serial. Serial was like the big bang in a lot of ways for what the podcast industry is now. So, Serial came out in, I think August of 2015 or July or something. But I had made the pilot, like most of the pilot, most of the version of the pilot that you heard like two years before. But there was no podcasting. There was a little bit of podcasting. There was Marc Maron and there was Bullseye, but it wasn’t like what podcasting was. Although Marc Marinn was so popular.
And I remember sending that pilot around to places like radio stations and they all liked it. And they didn’t know what to do with it because it was no podcasting. Literally, there was no way to get it off the computer. So, Serial is not what gave me the idea, but Serial did come out first.
Debbie Millman:
But you had the idea first.
Starlee Kine:
Oh, for sure. Yeah, I have filed dates to prove it.
Debbie Millman:
So, were you pursuing several mysteries at once or were you only pursuing the mystery about the video store and the mystery about the Britney book? How were you managing all of that at the time?
Starlee Kine:
I was pursuing several at once. And the video store one was this pilot that I did. When I say pilot, I mean it was the pilot, but also I did it without anyone telling me to do anything. There was a BBC incubation program that I think it doesn’t actually incubate anything. And there was this great guy, Colin Anderson, he works for Earwolf and I guess had Stitcher, Sirius now. I love Colin. And he worked at the BBC and he told me to do this. And it was very informal.
And so, I went down to Tribeca. I needed to force myself to do something because I was like in a rut. And so, I just went down there and tried to solve this mystery. That was very different process than the others. And then, the others in the season I was, yeah, pursuing, I was doing them all at once.
Debbie Millman:
So, part of what makes the Britney story so wonderful is you are actually meeting Britney.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
If you hadn’t met Britney, if you weren’t able to solve it, what would you have done? Would you have canned the whole thing?
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. I would not if I wouldn’t have met her. I definitely wouldn’t have put it out without having an answer, especially that. Yeah, that was the whole reason mystery show was so stressful, but also exciting because I needed these episodes that I liked, I couldn’t put out unless I also answered. I remember going to that Meet and Greet, that concert, and my heart was pounding so much because it was so much at stake because if I didn’t get her to talk to me, then it was all over. I guess I would’ve waited till now until when she’s suddenly like all gabby and like tried to like… I don’t know. I would not have put it out without her.
Debbie Millman:
You said that she smelled very lotion. And I was curious like flowery lotiony or more musky lotion?
Starlee Kine:
Not musky like coconut oil, like sun tan lotion. Not flowery. Maybe like a little powdery smell, but mostly like a sun tan lotion. So, that’s not, yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Is she tall?
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. It was so surreal. It was so surreal because she’s in her whole show outfit. My producer had messed up. I feel like I was very good about this and I didn’t get upset, but it could have cost us the whole story where she thought it was after Meet and Greet was after. And it turned out to be before. And I just happened to look at the ticket and I was like, “I think it’s before.” And I had to race, race there and I would’ve totally missed it because she was like… the plan had been, that we had scheduled, and my producer was really good about scheduling, but this was an oversight and I was going to go there and I thought it was after.
And so, it was so close. But you got so few times with her because she was under her father’s… It’s all been, I feel like my story is only added to the pile of evidence about what happened to her and you get so few times, and it’s very bright back there. And they don’t want you talking to her. And so, yeah, she seemed… we took a picture together and she seems so much bigger than me, but I’m, look, like small on pictures. So, I don’t know. She’s probably normal height.
Debbie Millman:
Apple Podcast designated it as the most successful new podcast of the year, was the top-rated show on Podbay. Yet after six glorious episodes, Gimlet canceled the show without giving you any notice while you were working on season two. Can you talk a little bit about what happened?
Starlee Kine:
They gave me notice in a sense that like I knew that they wanted to cancel it. I knew that they were like not being super supportive.
Debbie Millman:
It was the number one show of the year. Why would they want to cancel it?
Starlee Kine:
My theory is that I think it was very stressful for Gimlet to have a show like mine that was so unpredictable and took time. Although, that season one, the Mystery Show, I made in seven months. To me, that’s not that long to like solve six mysteries produce, edit, conceive, everything.
Debbie Millman:
That’s one a month. That’s crazy.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. The thing that going into Mystery Show for that first season was I knew almost every mystery what it was going to be. The hardest thing was finding mysteries that were interesting enough to solve. It was even harder than solving them. It was like the right kind. And so, I knew mostly because I’d been thinking for a few years about this show. And so, season two, I had to find the mysteries, but I also get back into the mindset because they had not only did they cancel Mystery Show in the second season, but first season was stopped.
It was supposed to be more episodes. And then, Alex from Gimlet said, “We’re stopping it now, season one ends now, then you can go work on season two.” And I really did want that to happen because I had such momentum, not only with people liking it, but it meant creatively, and just how I work, I was just like in such a flow state. And so, then, season two was just like having to ramp back up to that.
And I think Gimlet was very stressed by… What I loved on Mystery Show was just a source of stress for them. Because they would rather do a show that was like, you do the Britney but you don’t have to solve it. And that’s what I didn’t want. I also think it’s what makes Mystery Show so good is that, just like the stakes of it. And so, by the time I was working on season two, Gimlet no longer needed a show like Mystery Show because it was already established.
It didn’t have to have a hard show. It could have a show. It could just, what didn’t matter… And some of them are different, varying levels of difficulty with Gimlet shows. I don’t listen to Gimlet shows now, but I think that was the main thing is why be stressed when you don’t have to be.
Debbie Millman:
Well, artistic integrity and innovation.
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. But that didn’t matter. And so, I think if the goal is to be sold to Spotify, which I think essentially is what the goal of Gimlet was. And if it showed that you don’t need to have a Mystery Show to sell this Spotify, why have a Mystery Show? That’s what I think their thinking was. I think they think they gave it a chance, but I think the reaction to the way that they treated the show and me after having this wildly successful season was the problem, like was a very confusing. It didn’t feel, like I wasn’t made to feel good. And that’s confusing when you’ve made something that not only is good but is a hit.
Debbie Millman:
Any thoughts on never bringing it back somewhere else?
Starlee Kine:
I did try to bring it back. Every company that tried that said they were interested in bringing Mystery Show back fell through. It hasn’t been like a good experience after like, and varying levels of like, oh my God, that’s so fuck up to just like, or timing. And then, I think I could have also brought it back myself, like through crowdfunding. But I think it’s been hard. I find it really hard to access how I felt making that show. Because I loved making it so much and I was so into it, and I was just disillusioned after what happened.
I was very trusting and very much believed in just, like you said, the integrity of the work. And the way that the podcast industry has evolved has made me just, I just feel completely different about the medium now or at least the business of it.
Debbie Millman:
You’ve gone on to work on additional podcasts and more in television. You’re currently one of the co-hosts or sometimes co-hosts of Election Profit Makers. And you’ve also branched into television. You’ve been in the writer’s room for the HBO series Search Party. And you do voiceover for an adult swim stop-motion, animated, surrealist comedy titled The Shivering Truth.
Starlee Kine:
Very little voice, like three lines, but yeah.
Debbie Millman:
That’s cool. What’s it been like moving into television? Do you like it more or less, differently?
Starlee Kine:
I worked on Search Party for five seasons, so it’s different. I really wanted to challenge myself. I just don’t like feeling like I can’t do something or I’m denied doing something. And when I first worked in the room for Search Party Season one, it was really intimidating to me because it was scripted and it was comedy people. And at first, I was like, “I’m all cocky. I know narrative, I worked for… This American Life always prided themselves on, we’re the best at narrative and we can structure anything.
And it was so actually daunting being in that room because it’s a whole different language. It’s a whole different way of thinking about story and it was really hard. I found it hard. And that I think I wanted that because I wanted to learn how to do a new thing and I wanted something that felt like out of my comfort zone that’s a cliché, but I did. And I just want to have more options. I just want to know how to do as much as possible.
Debbie Millman:
You stated this about writing, I’m the writer where it can take days, weeks, months before I’m able to start writing. Starting is absolutely the hardest part. My brain needs the conditions to be lined up just right. So, what are the conditions for you?
Starlee Kine:
Yeah. I learned a lot about like, I love neurodivergent TikTok. It’s the best. I love the ADHD stuff. So helpful.
Debbie Millman:
In what way?
Starlee Kine:
Well, like why is it helpful in neurodivergent TikTok? Because I love all this stuff. I love the de-stigmatization of everything that was stigmatized before. And so, I feel like when I look at the TikTok about like brains and specifically ADHD, but also just like different, like ways of processing and cognition and learning. It’s so empowering because it’s just like, oh, anything that I thought was like a bad way to work before is just like, it’s just like the wrong brains are in charge of everything.
These guys who are so mediocre who have brains where they make their little lists. Their brains aren’t better than my brain. They’re definitely not better than all these like kids on Tiktok brain. It’s just that they’re in charge of everything. And so, they tell you that you’re doing it wrong, but they’re not right. And I feel like I apply a lot to when I think about Mystery Show, like the way… I know Mystery Show is good. And I think a lot about how I was when I was working on it and why it’s so hard for me to get back into that thinking.
It was like, I do… What you’re saying, what I said about once I start and I’m off, I got… with Mystery Show, it’s like I started and then once I start, I could just do anything or at least I can, within the limits of the idea. But yeah, I just feel like identifying how you work and understanding that, like if not a flawed way, it’s just that there’s boring people are in charge. I want you to think that flawed is really helpful to me.
Debbie Millman:
How do you feel being in a writer’s room collaborating on writing? I didn’t know how that worked, and my wife was working in a writer’s room as well. And so, she’s collaborating with other writers in writing. How does that work?
Starlee Kine:
We were, Roxanne and I were in a writer room together. It works. I haven’t been in that many rooms, so I only know what the ones that I’ve been in. But in Search Party, you don’t write in the room at all, which is like a dream for me because writing to me is like the most painful part, at least until I finally get started and I’m in it. But that’s what I think I found so exciting when I first was in a room because it was just like a bunch of very smart, funny, interesting thinkers talking all day. And that talking turns into plot and structure and jokes and script. It’s amazing. It’s so productive.
Debbie Millman:
The last thing I want to talk to you about is something that you wrote in a rather unusual medium. Several years ago, you worked with The Thing Quarterly, which was an object-based publication and brainchild of the artist, John Herschend and Will Rogan. And your issue was called a marvel of attractive simplicity, a brown cardboard box containing a text-laden cutting board. And the text was titled Crying Instructions and was exactly that instructions for crying.
And though I was a subscriber for the first two years of The Thing, I forgot to renew my subscription after issue eight. And so, I missed issue nine and 10 and 11 and 12. And I desperately tried to find one. You are sold out immediately. It took a few years, but I finally found one on eBay. And after a furious bidding war, I won it. I have it here. It’s not the brown… Oh, I’m not telling you.
Starlee Kine:
Was it really a bidding war?
Debbie Millman:
Oh, my God.
Starlee Kine:
Really?
Debbie Millman:
Yeah.
Starlee Kine:
Who sold it?
Debbie Millman:
And I actually found another one year later because I had alert on your name. So, I found another one and I gave it to Paula Scher who’s one of the typography geniuses of our time and she loves it.
Starlee Kine:
Oh, wow.
Debbie Millman:
But this is mine.
Starlee Kine:
This is the original one?
Debbie Millman:
No. Paula got the original because I wanted her to have it. This is a redo. They did another one.
Starlee Kine:
The reissue. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
So, the reissue is this one. This is the second one. The first one I gave to Paula. And so, I was wondering if you could read the Crying Instructions and then also if you would sign it for me.
Starlee Kine:
Sure. So crazy. Do you want me to sign on the front or back?
Debbie Millman:
Whatever you prefer. I know that you want people to use these.
Starlee Kine:
I do.
Debbie Millman:
Paula does not. I do not. One time somebody was staying in my house and they did. So, now I had to hide it whenever anybody knew, stays in my house.
Starlee Kine:
I know. I see marks. That’s good.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. But that was not intentional. And I was very mad at Zoe Mendelson for doing that. She used it a lot.
Starlee Kine:
I see a lot of marks. Do you want me to read it?
Debbie Millman:
Yes, please. So, this is Crying Instructions by Starlee Kine.
Starlee Kine:
It’s so weird to read this after all this time. Today I am the crazier person because I bought an onion at the farmer’s market. This onion made me cry so naturally it reminded me of you. I opened my notebook and read from a list of questions starting at the top. How did you decide to become the type of person who wears a tattered straw hat? This is also about Anthony.
Debbie Millman:
I had a feeling.
Starlee Kine:
Not deserving. Has there been one night where you have gotten very drunk and kicked over a potted plant, sick with the realization that you have lost me? Would you mind tracing your shoulders onto a large piece of paper so that I can see if they’re as narrow as I remember? The onion, of course, didn’t answer. It really had you down.
Debbie Millman:
Starlee Kine, I could talk to you for hours more. Thank you so much for making so many beautiful things in the world. And thank you for joining me today here at the On Air Fest.
Starlee Kine:
You’re welcome. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Thank you, everybody.
Speaker 3:
[inaudible 00:57:30]
Debbie Millman:
Legend.
Speaker 3:
Thank you all for being here.
Starlee Kine:
You want me to sign this now?