From pop stars to sports legends to rock gods, Mary Ellen Matthews has been crafting iconic images as an entertainment portrait photographer for over two decades. She joins to talk about her career as the chief photographer for Saturday Night Live and how she’s created the distinctive look for the show’s images since 1999.
Debbie Millman:
When we think of Saturday Night Live, we think of sketch comedy, monologues and musical acts. But the show has also had a profound effect on America’s visual culture. Think of the opening sequences and its stream of still photos. It made New York City look gritty, glamorous, and irresistible. And the guest portraits usually shown between commercial breaks are a spectacular catalog of American celebrity. Many, many of those portraits have been taken by photographer Mary Ellen Matthews. She’s been working as the chief photographer for Saturday Night Live for several decades now, and she has also directed videos for the show. I think it’s safe to assume that she has seen it all and she’s here to tell us all about it. Mary Ellen Matthews, welcome to Design Matters.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I am so excited to be here. I can’t tell you, I’m overwhelmed.
Debbie Millman:
I also want to let our listeners know that for the first time ever, Maximus Toretto Blueberry Millman Gay, the family dog is here along with us, and I’m really excited because believe it or not, my first question for you is about your dog, Daphne.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Daphne.
Debbie Millman:
I was wondering if you can tell us a little bit more about Daphne and also why the name Daphne? It’s sort of an old-fashioned name.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
She came from Alabama. I adopted her. She came with the name Daphne. So I’m imagining that she came from Daphne, Alabama, which is, I didn’t know that. But a good friend of mine is from Alabama and told me that there was a Daphne, Alabama. He said she must be from Daphne, Alabama. She’s a Catahoula and a Heeler mix.
Debbie Millman:
You grew up in Madison, New Jersey. Your dad was a photographer and he even had a dark room in the basement of your house. So it sort of seems like your whole life was destined.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
It was there. It was down in the basement. He was a hobbyist, not a professional. So I grew up with the smell of fixer and all the chemicals, and I used to stand on this little box and watch him develop all the photos. He would give me and my brother and sisters little contests like, “You get one frame only. Give us the camera and say, and you get one frame only.” And then he would develop them and then say who the winner was.
Debbie Millman:
How often did you win?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I won once. I took a picture of a flag blowing on a big pole. I mean, I’m going to say it was minimalist. It had a lot of patriotic energy to it.
Debbie Millman:
Do you still have that photo anyway?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I don’t. I’m sure it’s somewhere. We have a big box of stuff that someone needs to go through.
Debbie Millman:
Now, I know you have three sisters and a brother.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yes.
Debbie Millman:
Where are you in that lineup?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I’m the youngest of all of them.
Debbie Millman:
And he only let you win once?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Just once. That’s out of my memory, but I’ll have to double check all that.
Debbie Millman:
Now, how much did your dad teach you and how much did you learn by reading and teaching yourself?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
He taught me a lot, actually. He would love to show me the camera and tell me about the F-stops and the shutter speeds and how it all worked and put it in my hands. So that was a lot. And then to do what your dad is doing, that’s all you really want to do is to get your hands on what he’s doing. There’s a lot of photo books around like the classic time Life mag, the books on photography and the war photography and still life, and just things that you-
Debbie Millman:
Family of man.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Family of man.
Debbie Millman:
Right?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yes, exactly.
Debbie Millman:
And those sexy photos. Every now and then you’d see one. Oh my gosh.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yes, yes. And pull it out by yourself sometime and just be like, “What is that?” But yeah, so those made a big impact on me and just pouring through those books. And wishing there were more. So going to the library, taking out more photography books and just seeing the big bright world out there of what can be done with the camera.
Debbie Millman:
Did you also learn how to develop your own photos at that point?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. Well, I guess I just more watched him. Gosh, I’m losing the language of it now. I hate to say it, but taking the film out of the spool and putting in the chemicals and then of course the dark room process. But I still have the enlarger somewhere, and it’s one of my dreams to get that up and running one of these days.
Debbie Millman:
In addition to photography, I know you were an avid athlete. So you were a swimmer, a diver, a surfer, an equestrian, and an active gymnast.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Not active anymore, but yes, during my whole life I was, yeah.
Debbie Millman:
What kind of gymnastics were you doing?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I was doing it all. That was where you could find me down the gym at the YMCA.
Debbie Millman:
So like balance beam and horse, and barns?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Vault. All around. So vault, parallel bars, balance beam, and floors.
Debbie Millman:
That’s incredible.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
And I went to college for it, so after sophomore year it was like, “Maybe you should rethink this a little bit.” I got a scholarship and I had to keep going and doing it, but then it was like, “Oh, there’s beer in boys and frat parties and stuff.” And you shouldn’t be on that balance team anymore.
Debbie Millman:
So were you actually considering becoming a professional gymnast? Did you have aspirations to go to the Olympics?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Well, yeah, I guess professional. There was no such thing, I guess, as a professional. But did I want to be? Of course, but it just was not in the card, so I think I took it as far as I could, but I loved it so much. It was just my life for a long time and all those horses I’ve been riding pretty much my whole life.
Debbie Millman:
What kind of surfing and what kind of diving?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Well, surfing I took up later in life and I have a little bungalow out in the east end of Long Island, so I learned out in ditch planes and Montauk and shout out to Dalton who taught me how to surf. So that’s been a great way to be athletic in this stage of life out there and be in nature. There’s nothing else like it. There’s nothing better.
Debbie Millman:
You mentioned college. You went to East Stroudsburg University and you also, in addition to your gymnastics scholarship, you studied media technology and film. What kind of media technology? Did you also study photography?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. There was a lot encapsulated within that title. Graphic design, photography. We had to make a film, but photography was one of the things of course I loved the most.
Debbie Millman:
Did you move to New York City immediately after college?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I got an internship at MTV and that was 1989, I think. And when MTV was just huge-
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, absolutely.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
So to peak-
Debbie Millman:
[inaudible 00:06:44] MTV time.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
To peak, peak, peak.
Debbie Millman:
How did you get an internship at MTV? I couldn’t get an internship at MTV. I couldn’t work for free at MTV. I wanted so badly to work there.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Come on. Did you apply?
Debbie Millman:
Well, I had a lot of friends. No, I didn’t apply because I was always afraid of failing and not… But, yeah.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Well, it was the whole thing. I had a really good counselor I’m going to say. Forgive me, I don’t remember his name, but he was so supportive and got me up close to those people and I had to go for an interview, a couple of them, and it was a big deal. I mean, to get it was huge. So I commuted from Madison, New Jersey, and that’s about an hour, whatever. But it was studio production and I would have to walk all these tapes back and forth to the office, to the production, and I was in the studio, so I would help talent wrangle the VJs.
Debbie Millman:
Yes.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Adam Curry.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. He named podcasts. What he came up with the name podcast-
Mary Ellen Matthews:
You know it’s funny-
Debbie Millman:
… in 2003 or 2004.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
… I just was talking to a friend of mine saying how excited I was to do this, and she said, “God, when did that start?” You’re hitting me that it’s Adam Curry.
Debbie Millman:
Adam Curry. He came up with the name.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Unbelievable. Well, this is kismet right there.
Debbie Millman:
Right?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Alison Stewart, who’s a big NPR, I listen to her.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, absolutely.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
And-
Debbie Millman:
Martha Quinn.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Martha Quinn, Downtown Julie Brown and Kurt Loder.
Debbie Millman:
Kurt, of course.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Was a big deal. But what was my point?
Debbie Millman:
Working at MTV as an intern.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Oh, yeah. So being in the studio, so they would have all these bands and musicians come in, and once George Harrison came in and I remember it just goes on and on.
Debbie Millman:
So you also had a job in music publicity at a record label? I believe it was called TVT.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
TVT, yep.
Debbie Millman:
And so was that the job that you had after MTV?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
After MTV, I also at the same time interned for K-Rock, which was a rock and roll radio station that had Howard Stern 92.3 back in those days. And I was an intern there. So I did two at once. I was like, I was in the city, I might as well go there to there and get all this experience. Well, this is a story.
Debbie Millman:
Excellent.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
So when those two things were done, I had a resume now, which wasn’t too bad having those two things on it. So I just wanted to work at a record label at that time. I had to print them out and I had them in a folder and I put on this suit like you went to Strawberry or something, and got-
Debbie Millman:
Dressbarn.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
… the Dressbarn.
Debbie Millman:
Ross.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
And I got the blazer and the long skirt, and I had the thing. I was walking around to every record label in Midtown and I saw this big movie set. I’ve never seen one before in my life, and I walked up to the guy. There was a guy who had these kind of headsets on and a microphone thing. He was in charge behind these ropes and I said, “What are you doing?” I kind of asked him about what he did and said, “How do you do that?” He’s like, “You got to know someone. Keep moving.” Did not want to have any conversation with me. And then I hear, “Excuse me, miss. Miss?” And it was Bill Murray in the middle of the cordoned off area and he said, “Can you help me or can you take a picture of me and my friends?”
He had a little camera and I said, “Well, sure.” Took a picture. And I said, “Can I have your autograph?” I had my resume. And he was like, “Are you looking for a job?” I said, yeah. He goes, “Do you want to work for me?” I was like, “Sure.” And he put that into motion, took me aside, put me in somebody’s hands to say, “Start her tomorrow as a PA.” So that was a big whirlwind. And then I was walking to a payphone to call my mom to tell her, as you do back then, you’d call on the payphone, and I’m telling her, and then Robert Plant and his band, I think were the Honeydrippers at that time, were walking by looking super rock and roll. And this was on 42nd Street by [inaudible 00:10:47]
Debbie Millman:
Grand Central.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Grand Central, yeah. So they were walking to a souvenir shop and I saw them walk in. I was like, “Got to go click.” I walked in and I asked him for his autograph, and he said, “You’re looking for a job?” And I said, “Yep.” And then he’s like, “Well, go to Atlantic Records. Talk to so-and-so. Tell him I sent you.” So that didn’t pan out, but working on a movie that was called Quick Change did. And that’s how I became friends with Bill Murray. And it had nothing to do with SNL.
Debbie Millman:
Right. I mean, that’s the part that I think is so serendipitous that you ended up… I mean, he had to have come back as a guest host-
Mary Ellen Matthews:
He did.
Debbie Millman:
… in the time after while you were working at Saturday Night Live.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
He did. He did.
Debbie Millman:
What did he think of this sort of way in which your lives sort of intersected?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I think I might have told him, left him a message or something. I had a way to contact his people or something and just said, “Just so you know.” So it was pretty funny when he saw me there, but I think he knew a little bit.
Debbie Millman:
After the movie with Bill Murray, I read that you then moved on to the camera department on other productions. What other movies did you work on back in those days?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I worked on a TV show, I think it was called Emergency 911. It was on NBC. I was in the camera department and they used to call me the camera tomato, which I thought was hilarious, but it probably wouldn’t go very far these days. I was a film loader and I worked on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I think that was it. There might’ve been another one. I fell into TVT somehow. I don’t remember from there to there, but I think I just went back to going to the record company.
Debbie Millman:
What did you imagine? I mean, this was such heady times, those late ’80s into the early ’90s in New York City, and the whole notion of the way music was evolving.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
It was so exciting.
Debbie Millman:
What did you envision your life was going to be like as an artist?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I knew that I wanted to be a photographer and I thought being at a record label could get me closer to the bands. Of course, everybody wanted to shoot the bands and be at the show and do the hang and just get that creative push from all these amazing musical artists. So I thought that was a good entree, and that’s what happened is I got into TBT and I was working. They had a thing called the Sullivan Years and they bought the rights to the Ed Solomon Show. So me and another guy had to go through all of the audio and put them in categories, which was sort of fascinating. But very stationary.
And then I would go out at night and shoot all the bands because you’d get all these invitations to do so. And being an independent label, there were so many bands you would get to see. So that’s what I did. And then I had to leave because I wasn’t really doing my job.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, you were more interested in doing what you loved?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Were you ever worried or afraid that you couldn’t make a living as a photographer? I mean, those aren’t-
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Sure.
Debbie Millman:
… sort of slam dunk careers.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Sure. Doing fashion and doing those big shoots seemed so, so far away at the top of the mountain for sure. And you just wonder, how am I going to get there? How am I going to figure this out? And doing what I was doing at the label and working in music got me very far into that world. But yeah, I had a job, thank God at the time. So I left. And the reason I left was because… I mean, I became a publicist and we had Nine Inch Nails, and that was all very exciting. So that was a whole other part of it all.
But the reason I left was because I think I was asked to leave number one, and again, I walked across the street, there was a payphone, and I went to check my answering machine. That’s what we had. Didn’t you remember doing that?
Debbie Millman:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Like beep, beep, beep, beep.
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely. My dad was appalled that I had an answering machine. I got an answering machine in my first apartment in 1983 and he couldn’t believe that he had raised a child that was so narcissistic that she needed to know who called her when she wasn’t home. He was like, “Can’t they just call you back?”
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Right, right, right.
Debbie Millman:
Dad, just get with the times.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Right. He’s not wrong though in a way.
Debbie Millman:
Right.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
So then that happened then you’d be like, “Okay, I got to check my answering machine. I got to check my answer machine.” So I checked my answering machine and a friend of this other publicist, Jennifer Gross, who’s amazing, left me a message saying, “I know you’re into photography. I’m leaving this job with Edie Baskin at Saturday Night Live. Do you want to interview with her? That was the same day I walked across the street. I was like, “Bye.” And then I changed. So that was serendipitous also. So I interviewed for the job, and then I ended up working for Edie Baskin.
Debbie Millman:
What was that like?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Amazing. She was so wonderful to me as a mentor as to get to know what the show was and what this job was to be the photographer there. Obviously, she set the tone with all her photographs and images.
Debbie Millman:
You joined Saturday Night Live as Edie Baskin’s assistant in 1993.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Mm-hmm.
Debbie Millman:
Now, Edie was the photographer who created the bumper images that are seen before and after the show’s commercial breaks that feature the episode’s host and also introduced the musical guests.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yes.
Debbie Millman:
Now, why is called the bumper?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Because it bumps into commercial or it bumps into the show. There’s a reason for it. And each local market, because it’s live television, it has to have a place where it all meets to go back to the show.
Debbie Millman:
Interesting.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
And some linger longer like in Kansas City, it may hang there for a minute, but sometimes in New York it goes boop, and it’s out. So it just depends how it goes.
Debbie Millman:
Now, Edie initiated using her photography as a graphic element in the show. She used unusual techniques to bring the photos to life that included hand coloring the photographs. Talk about what it was like to work with Edie at that time, at this moment when Saturday Night Live was also really in its heyday?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah, in the ’90s.
Debbie Millman:
Or it’s second sort of Saturday Night Live 2.0 after the original troop.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
And then the time it went through in the ’80s when Lorne left for a little bit and then it came back. And things started to change as far as the techniques that were becoming available. So she was very experimental with that, a Polaroid transfers and all kinds of things. So to be in the studio at that time when the cast was such a… I mean they’re all heyday, but it was the Adam Sandler and Phil Hartman, and just to know that time was amazing when I first started and see her work with the host and the cast, and Lorne. There’s no better way to get to know the show and what it means to everyone.
Debbie Millman:
What does an assistant do to a chief photographer? What did you do with Edie?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Well, we help set up the lighting. Just support getting things. Well, then it was film, so getting the film down to the film lab. Oh my God. I’m like, what was it called?
Debbie Millman:
Duggal? I know that that was one of the major ones.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
That was part of it. That was part of the post-production. But we used US Color, which is no longer there, and that was on Bleecker Street. And so go and pick up the clips, which clips were, you would just take a tail of the film and make sure it was developed right and then you’d say, “Okay, push at a stop, take it down a stop, whatever.” So just getting her that stuff and then help her edit the session and get the stuff to the post-production. Creatively just help her and watch what she was doing and help her in the shoot and change lenses and put the blue lighting, take it down and all that kind of stuff. Wardrobe, hair, all that.
Debbie Millman:
What was the biggest thing you learned from Edie Baskin?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Oh, just a sense of Cool. That was the stamp on Saturday Night Live was like, you get a stamp that sets SNL that meant this is how New York life is. This is how we do it here.
Debbie Millman:
You became lead photographer at Saturday Night Live in 1999 when Edie retired and you said this about the transition. “All I wanted to do is make her proud, but also keep the sense of cool and what this show is trying to convey, and just keep up that level of work.” Do you feel like you’ve done that?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I hope so. I hope so.
Debbie Millman:
Did she ever tell you that you had?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah, for sure. And Lorne has said so. The fact that I’m still there says, yeah. No one is looking for a pat on the back or anything of that sort there, because it moves so fast and we have to just keep on our own feet, just keep the show moving forward. And week after week, you get to start over again. The tabula rasa like you get to start again and do better and go like, “Okay, I know what didn’t work last time, and now we get to do it again,” which is amazing. It’s not the train that just keeps moving. It stops and you get to get off, shake yourself off and come back on again.
Debbie Millman:
Speaking of Lorne Michaels, Edie first met the creator and executive producer of Saturday Night Live, Lorne Michaels.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
It’s hard to say, right?
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, a little bit. She met him at a poker game at the Chateau Marmont while visiting friends.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
How cool is that?
Debbie Millman:
It doesn’t get cooler. It just doesn’t. Well, maybe meeting Robert Plant on the sidewalk that might be-
Mary Ellen Matthews:
In a souvenir store.
Debbie Millman:
Exactly.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Sorry, Robert, I called you out that you were shopping in there.
Debbie Millman:
Tchotchkes, who doesn’t love them?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Right.
Debbie Millman:
So that led to her getting the job as the show photographer. How did you first meet Lorne, and what was that experience like?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Edie must have introduced me. She was super supportive and putting her trust in me, hopefully gave him that trust.
Debbie Millman:
And does he have any involvement in the shoots that you do? Does he watch, participate, choose?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Not so much. And I think that’s a testament to his trust in all of us. Obviously, he’s very involved in the sketches and how those go down as far as the writing and how it looks and the costume design. But I’ll take that back a little bit. Tom Broker is our insanely talented costume designer. I’m sure he’s trusted as much as I’m trusted or the set design is. Lorne looks at everything, and if there’s something he’d like to change or improve on, he’ll let you know.
Debbie Millman:
Since 1999, you’ve taken photographs of every single host and musical guest. A short, short, short list of these include Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Adele, lady Gaga, Dave Chappelle, Kim Kardashian, Billie Eilish, Jennifer Lopez, Paul McCartney, Rihanna, Jay-Z, Scarlett Johansson, Adam Driver, and pretty much every major comedian, actor and musician alive.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Let’s not forget about people like Senator John McCain, Senator Al Gore at the time.
Debbie Millman:
A couple of presidents.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Well, they weren’t a host, but they were on the set. So there was a lot of behind the scenes photography that goes on too, which I incorporate now. I incorporate my staff who are amazing. So they’re down there doing that these days. Will Heath and Ros O’Connor, Rosalyn O’Connor and Alex Schafer, little shout out there.
Debbie Millman:
Now, is it true that you only get between 20 and 90 minutes with the guests each week?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
And you have to create four to five concepts with wardrobe, hair and makeup along with props and sets?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. I mean, I love to do the concepting and come up with these kind of hair braided ideas or redo a photo and a very famous image that we put our own spin on. So I do have the support of, again, Tom Broker and my staff that helps me put that together and all the prop department. But those ideas come when they come. I try to do as much prep as I possibly can, but then if I’m on a cab, I’m in a cab on the way up, and I was talking to a friend of mine and I was like, “God, Sarah Silverman, she’s so funny. What else is there?”
At that time, I was trying to go outside of the building or just use, not just the studio, but go outside, just pushing it a little bit. And the idea of putting her on a ladder and dressing her in a maid’s costume to have her dust off the NBC studio sign came to me. So, “Tom, can you help me? And can we get the building services? Can we put her up on a ladder?” And so those things happen to us late in the day sometimes.
Debbie Millman:
Now, do you do different setups? So that was clearly a sort of home run with Sarah Silverman. Do you do other setups and then say, “You know what, we like the one on the ladder best,” or do you do sort of all in the same realm?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I love to mix it up as much as possible, but sometimes you don’t have enough time. So in that day… By the way, I almost got fired for that one.
Debbie Millman:
Why?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Because I didn’t really clear it with the building, and we did just take a ladder outside and stick her up there. That building is owned by certain people who didn’t… And it was kind of dangerous. But it was okay. I just couldn’t do that again. But we did that and then we were walking to the building and I thought it’d be funny if she was flashing us and Tom had a gorgeous over code and she’s flashing. So it’s very much in the moment. As much as you can plan for it, sometimes it just has to be the moment.
Debbie Millman:
From what I understand, you go back and forth between photographing the host while the musical guest is practicing and then vice versa. So it feels very much like Mrs. Doubtfire like you’re going back and forth into major dinner parties.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Well, they’re rehearsing and we’re shooting. Like when Paul Rudd was on with Paul McCartney, we’re trying to shoot, but Paul McCartney is rehearsing. So there’s that amazing, amazing moments. There’s so many amazing moments.
Debbie Millman:
Now, I read that Paul McCartney is one person that you were really nervous about photographing.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. But he is so lovely, just the most-
Debbie Millman:
Did he talk to you about Linda McCartney, his wife.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. I think he sensed that I was very nervous, and he said, “You know my wife is a photographer, don’t you?” I was like, “Yes.” And so he sat down on the stool and just was talking to me about her, but he just wanted to talk about her too.
Debbie Millman:
How do you develop rapport and chemistry, and trust with such big stars?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Well, I think it’s our job to do that because a lot of people, if they haven’t done it before, imagine their nerves coming on this institution and making their mark. So it is a gift to do that. If it was a sterile environment and not having that job also to kind of take the sting out of all of it would be something else. But I just want to make somebody happy and comfortable and make it quick and easy and fun and be part of our family.
Debbie Millman:
Do the artists that you shoot, are they competitive about the shoots? I want something funnier than Paul Rudd or I want something more glamorous than Adele.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Oh, that’s funny.
Debbie Millman:
Do they start to get competitive about what they love?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Not so much.
Debbie Millman:
How they’re portrayed?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Not so much. But sometimes someone will say, “That was really funny.” Because they’re all up in the hallway. They’re not all, but every host signs a photo and we put it up the set. They are all represented. So sometimes they’ll point to something and you go like, “Okay, you want to go there?”
Debbie Millman:
Do you ever get guests that are curmudgeonly or don’t want to be photographed or snap, snap, let’s get this over with.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Not really. I think everybody is so happy to be there. As much as I’m so happy to be there, everybody is happy to be there. That’s a gift for sure.
Debbie Millman:
You’ve said that you don’t want your SNL subjects overthinking this part of the show and it should be super fun and super easy, and it’s an open invitation to get kooky. That requires a lot of comfort and trust. If you’re doing something for 20 minutes or 40 minutes or 60 minutes. How do you encourage them to do that that quickly? Or is that just something that’s sort of part of their job description?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I don’t think so. I think that I’m giving them the invitation to get a little, like. I’m not going to say freaky, but a little kooky. Okay, I will use that word. But here’s a bunch of props and here’s what we’ve done before. If you’re comfortable, I can throw you this rubber chicken or whatever. So I use that because I’m kidding. But that’s a cheap comedy joke, of course, the rubber chicken.
Debbie Millman:
I was like, “Didn’t Steve Martin do that?”
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. But we can just do beautiful portraits too. It’s whatever anybody’s comfort zone is.
Debbie Millman:
How often do the artists come to you and say, “I want to look like Gilda Radner”?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Totally.
Debbie Millman:
“I want to look like Paul McCartney”.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
It’s happened for sure, because these have a reputation of we have the best costume and hair, and makeup department and props. So we can do anything pretty much on the turn of a dime. Well, I’m sure some people wouldn’t think so, but we really do our best to do that.
Debbie Millman:
Talk about the props and the costumes. How do you know what to collect? How do you know what to get?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Well, my first foot out the door is just to keep it kind of highbrow. I don’t want to get goofy. So there is just a zone that I stay in and I try to anyway… And it just keep collecting ideas and keep my brain fresh and look around for inspiration and read up and research who’s coming on and see what else they’ve done before and maybe what would apply to them or where they would like to go.
Debbie Millman:
You said you think of your photographs as billboards.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Mm-hmm.
Debbie Millman:
Why is that?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Well, because it’s a moment in the show. Well, first of all, because they’re horizontal. Everything is horizontal, which is a very challenging thing to put a vertical person in a horizontal space sometimes.
Debbie Millman:
I hadn’t really thought of that. That’s right.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
And then so we have this space 16 by nine, and then you have the logo, which is such a fun thing to incorporate in this space. And the negative space is great to use and plopping that on. So in my mind, that’s what I’m thinking about. Where’s the logo going to go if we go tight, twisting it this way, that way? So I’m always thinking about that billboard, that moment. And I guess I say billboard because it’s horizontal, but it also is a placard for the show.
Debbie Millman:
Do you ever find that format something that is in some way holding you back, or do you find a freedom in that?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Sometimes. Yeah, I do think, how can I do this differently? Yes. So that’s TBD.
Debbie Millman:
How do you approach the narrative arc of the eight photographs that you used during the show? So you have usually two photographs of the musical guest. If they do two performances and that’s sort of the way they’re about to go on, and then you have the other six of the host. Do you plan a story or a vibe or an attitude? It almost feels like it’s story good.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. Sometimes it’s either six or seven. Depending on-
Debbie Millman:
Oh, it’s not eight?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Eight or nine, sorry. Yeah, just depending on how the commercials fall. Sometimes they can add another one. The good nights, which is number nine, is always… To me, it’s like the whole show is wrapped up and maybe it’s a little nostalgic. Maybe it has a little bit of mood to it, or it’s joyous, so I can change things by the time it gets to air, seeing how dress goes. And maybe it does want to be joyous. Maybe it does want to be a little bit more serious and contemplative. But depending on the person and how the show goes. But yes, I do try to go from one to nine in a way that makes sense.
Debbie Millman:
You’re able to do something really remarkable in this very short amount of time. You have about three seconds that people are looking at that particular photo, maybe a little bit longer as you mentioned in Kansas. How were you able to create something so memorable on screen that goes by so quickly?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Well, it’s my job, I guess. But I’m working with somebody who is present there, so it’s 50-50. Or maybe it’s even 70/30. I’m not sure. They’re giving me a lot, so I have to give it to whoever is on the other side of the camera a lot of the time. I love doing the post-production, adding the color, the zang, the zip, the zoop, whatever it is. I find so much joy in that part of the art of it.
Debbie Millman:
Do you shoot in both black and white and color?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
No, just color. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
And you shoot everything at Studio 8H and NBC headquarters at 30 Rock?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Mm-hmm.
Debbie Millman:
Do you have your own studio or shoot on the SNL stages or how does-
Mary Ellen Matthews:
On the stage studio, sorry, stage 3A I think it is, which is our primo stage, which we like. I do a lot of video too for social media and the open of the show. So we have two sets. We have the still set and the video set. And sometimes we can’t go… Depending on how the show is going to be rehearsed. If they have a set that’s going to come in that day there, we have to move. So on my way up, I’m like, “Will, where are we?” He’s like, set 3A, or we’re a 6A, which is behind the music set, which is tighter. So it is what it is. I have no control over that.
Debbie Millman:
Now, you shoot both digitally and also analog, and as you mentioned, you now also shoot video.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I don’t shoot analog too much. No, no.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, no? Not at all anymore?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Not really. Well, first of all, we changed from shooting on Tuesday to Thursday. We don’t really have the time.
Debbie Millman:
Wow. So you’re shooting on Thursday-
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Thursday afternoon.
Debbie Millman:
… for a show that airs 48 hours later?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. But oh my goodness, they’re doing film pieces Friday night of the edit turnaround. So everything gets more and more compressed and doable as our skillset gets better.
Debbie Millman:
You talked about back in the analog days, loving the feeling and the magic of not knowing what you’ve got until it’s processed. How has shooting digitally changed the way you shoot?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Well, it’s how we all shoot now. Outside of SNL, I do a lot of advertising for entertainment, movie posters, things like the key art. And we want to see what we’re getting as we go. The client wants to see because we can make some changes. I don’t really look at a monitor when I’m doing our shoots at SNL because it’s so in the moment, and we just keep going and going and going. So for me, I don’t really use the monitor or the digital technology too much to my advantage. When they leave the set and they get changed, then I look at it and then we kind of go like, “Maybe we’ve moved that light down or whatever.” But I’m much more in the moment kind of person.
Debbie Millman:
I saw that you did your most recent SNL cash shot with a massive eight by 10 camera.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Technically-
Debbie Millman:
Maybe not the last cast, but the one before.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
With Kate McKinnon.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Kate McKinnon.
Debbie Millman:
I saw her in that shot. What was that like?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
That’s fun to do. It’s always fun to use a large format camera, and I think we’ve done our staff photos on that too. But it’s just you’re taking the technique and putting it back to more of analog what you’re saying. And we’re using film, the slides. It’s much more technical and much more considered, which is really fun to do. And it’s really great to go back to that when we have the opportunity.
Debbie Millman:
You shoot the photos for the different intros every year that Emily Oberman at Pentagram Designs. And she’s been doing that almost as long as you’ve been the chief photographer. What is that collaboration? How do you work together with a designer or other artists?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
She and I come… We concept together. So just for example, last year since we were coming out of COVID, we wanted… It was a big, big deal for everybody. And the year before that, when we were in COVID, we had to stay in the building. We couldn’t go more lin 20 feet outside of the building, all those rules. So that was a big challenge. So now everything is opening up. What are we going to do? We were brainstorming together and the idea of doing it at Chelsea Hotel came up.
So we talk about each vignette for each cast member. We had Mike Diva who works at SNL at the film unit. He was with us too in this journey, and he directed it. And we were the creative directors. So I think we were such a great team, and I think we nailed it.
Debbie Millman:
It’s my favorite thing-
Mary Ellen Matthews:
It’s so much joy, right?
Debbie Millman:
… in the premiers is to see the new opens.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah, I know.
Debbie Millman:
I love looking at them.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I know. I love doing it too. I mean, it’s a lot. When we are in it like when we do it, I always say, “Emily, I’m never doing this again.” She’s like, “Yes, you are.”
Debbie Millman:
Yes, you are. Next year at this time.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I love it. I can’t wait to do it again.
Debbie Millman:
How do you feel about the logo evolution?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
There’s so much love for the logo, and I love placing it. We’re using SNL. Are we going this way? That way? The color. It’s great to see it evolve, for sure. And now with the 50th anniversary coming up, so there’s a lot of discussions with that.
Debbie Millman:
50 years. I remember when it launched. I remember in the ’70s when it came on the air. I was so excited to stay up late on Saturday nights.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I know. I remember, I loved… Well, my brother and sisters loved Jackson Brown, so of course I did when as a kid. And I remember 1975 trying to stay up and watch Jackson Brown, and I remember falling asleep. Couldn’t stay up.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. You also shoot photographs for weddings and rock and roll tours. I know you toured with Aerosmith. You’ve shot the weddings of Scarlett Johansson?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
No, no, no.
Debbie Millman:
No?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Alec Baldwin.
Debbie Millman:
Tina?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Tina Fey.
Debbie Millman:
Amy Poehler?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yup.
Debbie Millman:
With Tyler.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Kate Hudson. Yes.
Debbie Millman:
What is it like shooting a wedding? The one time I shot a wedding for a friend, they got mad at me because I cut off everybody’s feet.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
It is so much pressure because it’s one moment, right?
Debbie Millman:
Right.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
And the bigger the wedding, the more pressure it is. But they were all wonderful and they were all great experiences, but it is a heart stopper for sure.
Debbie Millman:
I just think that with all the sort of bridezillas out there, it must be a very stressful experience.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. That’s why I don’t really do them anymore.
Debbie Millman:
What about tours? What was it like to tour with Aerosmith?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Oh, it was amazing. It’s like being on a movie. So I did a lot of production stills too, which was another phase of my film career. When you go on these things, when you’re working on a movie, you’re just part of this cocoon and you’re there for three months and you know everybody. The whole world just falls away, and it’s just amazing. And same thing with a tour. You’re just part of that like you’re insular and you see the trucks coming down and you see the guys opening the thing. You’re setting up the lighting. It’s a miracle every day.
Debbie Millman:
I want to talk with you about some of your favorite shoots and some of my favorite of your photographs. And you’ve said that of all the performers you’ve worked with, your favorite is Will Ferrell and that all your dreams come true when he walks in the door. Why is that? Why is that?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I mean, yes, that’s true, but there’s probably a few added to that now. I mean, you can just mold him. He’s so rich for ideas. And John Mulaney has become one of those people too. And Scarlett is one of those too. They’re just willing. And obviously they know the show too. So there’s that.
Debbie Millman:
How do you get someone like Will Ferrell to stick their head in a garden of flowers? Like, “Hey, Will, here’s an idea.”
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Because he’s that kind of guy. And did you ever see the one of him as Bo Derek?
Debbie Millman:
Yes.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
So sinking the head in the flowers wasn’t as much as putting on a little swimsuit.
Debbie Millman:
Actually, the imitation photos are some of my favorite. Whose idea was it for Aubrey Plaza to become Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Well, it was my idea. I’m going to say that, but weirdly that day, she was there because she was special guest with Sam Smith. She was a part of his musical performance. Because I pitched it to Aubrey, and she was like, “You know she’s here.” I was like, “What?” So it was amazing that she was there.
Debbie Millman:
How do you know when you’ve nailed it?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Oh, that’s a good question. You just do. You just do. When it just feels right. I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer that because it’s…
Debbie Millman:
Just some instinct?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. Because there’s an opportunity to find the gold in the moment that I have with her. Is that it?
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. I love knowing how people know that something is finished or done or good.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Right, right. She had the attitude and it just felt like she could embody that famous image, and she totally did.
Debbie Millman:
So I want to ask you about a couple of others. Reese Witherspoon cross-eyed with a bee on her nose.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Oh, yeah. Cute.
Debbie Millman:
How did that happen?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I just thought of… Because she just seems like such a cutie pie, but something… I was thinking maybe it was a profile. It was on her nose. And then she kind of found that, I think. And also there was this famous Shirley MacLaine image, I think.
Debbie Millman:
Yes.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Maybe that was part of it, but I feel like she found that herself.
Debbie Millman:
Harry Styles in a tutu.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Oh my goodness. That was on his wardrobe rack. And he was like, “Who has a cigarette and a glass of champagne?” And away he went.
Debbie Millman:
Don Cheadle as a flower.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I know I thought of that for him. I just saw him as just a badass flower.
Debbie Millman:
And so how do you approach him with an idea like that? Like, “Don, I’m seeing your face in the center of a daisy.”
Mary Ellen Matthews:
But I think like wouldn’t you want somebody… I mean, you’re a performer-
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, of course. Absolutely.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
It is a little scary. He might just say, “You got to go.” But I drew it. Actually, I still have it on my bulletin board. I cut out his face and I drew this flower and I put a stick flower and he was like, “I get it.” Thankfully again, Tom Broker had a flower back there in somewhere in the archives, and we made it happen.
Debbie Millman:
Adam Driver eating a skunk.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
That was all… I just had it on hand. So it’s nice to have these big table full of props and somebody finds some kind of moment with it.
Debbie Millman:
Larry David break dancing.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Oh, yeah, that’s right. In the track suit. Yeah. I think we had to Photoshop that a little bit. For sure.
Debbie Millman:
I was going to say that could not possibly have been Larry David.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
But you put somebody in a scenario that they usually aren’t in and if they’re game for it, great.
Debbie Millman:
Now, was that Alec Baldwin as Marlon Brando in the Godfather?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yes, with the stuff.
Debbie Millman:
That’s incredible. It was incredible. That is an incredible photograph. He’s incredible.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
It’s all him. I mean, you went for it.
Debbie Millman:
I read that one of your favorite photos features Andy Samberg in a martini glass, which is a great photo, which I read was an idea you’d been kicking around in your head and you couldn’t find the man for the job. Were people saying, “Good idea. Not for me.”
Mary Ellen Matthews:
No. I just was holding it back. I just thought I got to put someone in an olive costume and put them in a martini glass. I don’t know where that came from, but he was the guy. And the pimento cap.
Debbie Millman:
And then Edward Norton in the painting, Nighthawks, which is a very famous painting by Edward Hopper. I heard that when you shared the idea with him, he jumped out of his skin with just wanting to do it. So were you also saving that for the right person?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah, probably. Probably. But that was like, we got to do this. And that was a lot to do, four characters. So if we have time for four or five looks to do four characters, and if you divide it up, that eats up a lot of time.
Debbie Millman:
And he was all the characters.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
He was all the characters and the wigs and everything. So we made a little hut by the set. Instead of going back to his dressing room, and we just got put him in all the things. As an incredible actor as he is and artist, he knew how to get there fast.
Debbie Millman:
Last one, Rihanna playing poker, smoking a cigar.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
She was like, “Hell yeah.”
Debbie Millman:
Were those her nails or did you put them on?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Oh, they were hers.
Debbie Millman:
Incredible.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Just incredible.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
She’s amazing. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
How has Instagram changed or impacted the kind of work you do? You said that you were doing video for social media.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. Just because content is needed, right? For any artistic venture, we need content and for show to keep relevant and keep fresh, we want to keep doing that. So I thought of doing these little vignettes of these guys and gals, the musical guests and the host, and making that part of what we do for the show. Sometimes it’s very in the moment also, but it’s just we let somebody fly like here’s this area. We need a minute of slow motion video. Here’s the concept. Sometimes it’s thought out and sometimes it’s in the moment.
Debbie Millman:
You have been the chief photographer on Saturday Night Live for 28 years. It’ll be 30 years the same year as the 50th anniversary of the show.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I have to do the math because the 28 years I’ve been there I think was when I worked for Edie.
Debbie Millman:
Well-
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Just about.
Debbie Millman:
… still counts. Okay. What do you envision for this next sort of big milestone? 30 for you, 50 for the show.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. Well, we’re all kind of sitting back and thinking about that, what it means to all of us, but there’s going to be a big week or just a big year, I should say, for the show and for everybody who’s been there. We’re all looking at each other going, “It’s 50.”
Debbie Millman:
Do you think about doing other things?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah, for sure.
Debbie Millman:
What do you think about doing?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
I want to go into more fine art photography, which I’m sort of setting myself up for now, and just thinking about not being in 8H, which is really… It’s a big thought.
Debbie Millman:
Well, I don’t know anybody that could do the kind of work that you do. You have really helped to create the visual language of our time. And I saw that in 2010, you had an exhibition of your photography at the John Varvatos store in the old CBGB building on the Bowery. Have you thought about combining a monograph of your work?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yes.
Debbie Millman:
It seems so overdue, Mary Ellen.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
That’s in the works too. It’s definitely in the works. We are in talks about that. And a lot of other stuff because it is a big year, the 50th, and we’re all looking back at our work and how are we going to celebrate what we all have done? I want to celebrate the production design, and I want to celebrate the writers, and we all want to celebrate each other, so that’s part of it.
Debbie Millman:
What’s so remarkable about your work… And I think this will be my last question. What’s so remarkable about your work is that you take different photographs of different people, in different settings with different costumes, in a different sort of attitude every week. You’ve done that now for the last couple of decades, but they’re unmistakably yours. You can tell when it’s a Mary Ellen Matthews photograph.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Why?
Debbie Millman:
I want to ask you that? How does that happen?
Mary Ellen Matthews:
If it’s not a serious, quiet moment, I just want to project joy and bring that spark out and the sort of sparkle of the moment. And sparkle is not a good word. It kind of cheapens what I’m trying to say, but there’s a moment and we’re together. I’m honored to have this time with whoever it is, and I want to make them look the best and bring out the joy that we are so lucky to be there in that moment, at that time. We get to share it.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. It’s almost like you are able to capture the spirit of somebody on the very best day.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Yeah. All right. I’m stealing that.
Debbie Millman:
Okay, good. Mary Ellen Matthews, thank you so much for making so much work that matters.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Thank you.
Debbie Millman:
And thank you for joining me today on Design Matters.
Mary Ellen Matthews:
Thank you for having me. I was very nervous, but I could talk to you for another two hours.
Debbie Millman:
Wonderful, wonderful. For more information about Mary Ellen Matthews, you can go to copiousmanagement.com and see lots of her photos and you can follow her on Instagram at Mary Ellen Matthews. This is the 18th year we’ve been podcasting Design Matters, and I’d like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference, or we can do both. I’m Debbie Millman and I look forward to talking with you again soon.