One of the most influential art directors, design thinkers, and cultural critics of our time, Steven Heller, and his son Nicolas Heller, an acclaimed commercial director and documentarian, better known to his social media followers as New York Nico, join live at the AIGA Conference to talk about their remarkable careers and shared love for New York City.
From the Ted Audio Collective, this is Design Matters with Debbie Millman. For 18 years, Debbie Millman has been talking with designers and other creative people about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they’re thinking about and working on. On this episode, father and son, Steven and Nick Heller talk about their careers and about the weirdness and wonders of New York City.
This conversation took place in front of a live audience on October 13th at the 2023 AIGA Design Conference in New York City.
Debbie Millman:
A native New Yorker, Steven Heller is also one of the most influential art directors, design thinkers, and cultural critics in the entire world. He started his illustrious career working for many sixties era counterculture periodicals before joining the New York Times as an Art Director of the Op-Ed page and the book review where he worked for over three decades. In 1997, he became Co-Founder and Co-Chair of the MFA design program at the School of Visual Arts, and also co-founded five other grad programs, including the Master’s in Branding program [inaudible 00:01:48], which was his idea. In addition to writing over 200 books, including his recent splendid memoir, Growing Up Underground, he’s contributed to and edited numerous design publications and is currently the Co-Owner and Editor at Large at PRINT Magazine.
It’s very possible that his love of New York may have washed off on his son Nicolas Heller. Nick is an acclaimed commercial director and documentarian, better known to his two and a half million social media followers as New York Nico, and Nick Heller loves New York City. As the New York Times‘ unofficial talent scout of New York, Nick is known for creating stories that document the real one of a kind people and places in our city, and New York loves Nick Heller right back. In 2023, he was featured on the Why We Love New York Issue of New York Magazine, the Christmas issue of Timeout New York. His commercial clients include Shake Shack, Nike, the New York Knicks, Major League Baseball, Calvin Klein, and Timberland. Nicolas’s love affair with stories has extended into narrative filmmaking seen in his latest short order film Out of Order, which premiered at the 2022 Tribeca Festival. And like father, like Son, his first book, New York Nico and Friends Guide to New York City will be released in 2024.
Nick, my first question is for you. In a video about you on Bloomberg News, you confessed that you’ve never read any of your dad’s books. Is that true?
Nicolas Heller:
I read his most recent book. I read his memoir.
Debbie Millman:
Okay.
Nicolas Heller:
That came out before the memoir, so yeah. So no.
Debbie Millman:
So The Education of A Graphic Designer, no?
Steven Heller:
But ask him if he looked at the pictures.
Debbie Millman:
Did you look at the pictures?
Nicolas Heller:
I skimmed through a few of them, yeah. There was a period in my life where I didn’t know what I was going to do for a living, so I …
Debbie Millman:
Oh, we’ll get to that.
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah, okay.
Debbie Millman:
So you’re both native New Yorkers. What makes New York such a meaningful location for you? Why here and nowhere else? Steve, you first.
Steven Heller:
There isn’t any place else.
Debbie Millman:
Fair.
Steven Heller:
I grew up in a little town called Stuyvesant Town, and there was grass and trees and brick buildings, and I thought that was heaven.
Debbie Millman:
It is.
Steven Heller:
And I work only a few blocks away from where I was born, so every time I go there, I have great memories. And you can see the Empire State Building if you crick your neck. You can see the East River when it was clean. New York is just an incredible place.
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah. Well, unlike my dad, I went to school outside of New York, so I got to experience outside of New York for a little bit, and then I did the LA thing for six months after school, and it just made me realize how special New York is. And I just think as a born and raised New Yorker, there’s some people who can stay here their whole lives, there’s others that can’t wait to get out, and I’m one of those that just wants to stay here forever.
Debbie Millman:
Nick, in addition to your famous father, your mom is the legendary designer, Louise Fili, who happens to be here in the front row. Yes. And she has helped create the visual vernacular of New York City in her work with restaurants and brands. As a result, you grew up surrounded by their famous friends, people including Art Spiegelman, Seymour Quast, Paula Cher. And in fact, Paula told me that it was she who actually brought you home from the hospital right after you were born.
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
A distinction that I think no one in this room has but you. I understand you even worked with Awkwafina at a movie rental store in the West Village when you were 16 years old. How did your parents’ professional and social lives inform your ambition?
Nicolas Heller:
That’s a great question. They never really pushed me one way or the other. I think in high school they saw that I was really interested in film and they encouraged that. They never told me to go in the direction of becoming a designer, which probably would’ve been the easiest route. But yeah, they just encouraged whatever I wanted to do, they had faith in it, and I appreciate them a lot for that. And in terms of growing up with famous designers, I didn’t know who these people were other than …
Debbie Millman:
Just Aunt Paula.
Nicolas Heller:
Aunt Paula, Uncle Seymour. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Steve, how did Nick’s creativity first manifest as he was growing up? What was some of the first things that you witnessed him doing that impressed you creatively?
Steven Heller:
Well, the first thing I noticed when he started filmmaking, which was in middle school, was that they were some of the more violent films I’d ever seen, and it was suggested to us that we take him to see some counseling. I figured it was just a phase and that was the kind of filmmaking that was being done at that time, it was before Marvel Heroes. But he’s always been laser sharp when it comes to filmmaking and making images and telling stories.
Debbie Millman:
I came across a quote, Nick, you were talking about how making your own films at school, and you described them very similarly to the way your dad just did, “very messed up subject matter,” as you put it. And you stated that you would watch your teachers watching your films, and they were like, “What the fuck is going on with this kid?” And so I’m wondering, just positing here, a thought if this might be genetically inherited because I want to read a short entry from your memoir Growing Up Underground, and then you’ll all tell us if there’s some genetic connection.
“There was a plus side to staying at home. I started to obsessively draw pictures of my feelings. My drawings soon became the main topic of my twice weekly therapy sessions. You’ll understand why after I describe the themes, little naked men without genitals adorned with long Jesus inspired hair and thick mustaches, often hanging on crucifixes or crouched over toilet bowls puking their guts out. I drew the other characters later and all involved the removal of limbs or [inaudible 00:09:15] with extremely sumptuous breasts. Sometimes I’d be more prosaic, drawing trees struggling to hold onto their leaves and bending in opposite directions against strong winds. Other drawings included prisoners behind walls, bars, and impediments. Pretty obvious symbolism, no?
The shrink was so enamored by my work that I felt more confident. To my unhappy surprise, my mom said that she loved, or at least was morbidly fascinated by the drawings. Years later, with my reluctant permission, she cut some of them up and laminated them as a collage into a coffee tabletop. As soon as both my parents passed away, I found and disposed of that table along with dozens of albums of their travel snapshots. I gave some of my surviving drawings to my son Nick, who showed an honest interest in them.”
And so there, gentlemen, is the genetic connection between the two of you. I was very proud of that.
Steven Heller:
Yeah, I apologize. When you read my words, they always sound much better than when I write them.
Debbie Millman:
Nick, did those drawings influence you in any way? Did they sort of open up a freedom to express yourself in whichever way you wanted to?
Nicolas Heller:
Not directly, but I guess subconsciously, yeah. Yeah, I loved his drawings. They were so cool. I still have one of them. It’s like a little naked guy in a canister full of ice. You know the one I’m talking about? But it’s sitting by my desk.
Steven Heller:
Through therapy, I’ve learned to forget those drawings.
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Now Nick, you talked about leaving New York to go to college, and you went to Emerson College in Boston to study film. What drove that decision?
Nicolas Heller:
I just wanted to get out of the city at that point.
Steven Heller:
And we drove him.
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah, I could have easily gone to SVA, had a great life, but I just … I was born and raised in the city. It was time to get out.
Debbie Millman:
And so you started making short films that you shot, directed, and edited, and have said that you recognized from the outset that you weren’t a skilled technical filmmaker and decided to work that into the aesthetic of your movies.
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Do you still feel that way? I mean, I can’t see that you don’t have a strong aesthetic.
Nicolas Heller:
No. Well, I didn’t have a technically strong aesthetic in college because I wasn’t really friends with any other filmmakers who could help me with production, so I kind of had to do it myself. So the films I was making was like from the perspective of a camera operator or a security camera, or something that I didn’t need a skilled film-er for. But now I work with a really talented crew and I can just focus on directing. I didn’t really have the luxury of that before.
Debbie Millman:
You started making music videos in your junior and senior year of college, and after graduating, you decided to move to Los Angeles. Why?
Nicolas Heller:
So I did a year back in New York after college, and I was making these sort of low budget underground music videos and kind of figured the next logical step for me would be to move to Los Angeles and make it as this big time music video director.
Debbie Millman:
So like a Spike Jones, Hank Williams?
Nicolas Heller:
Exactly. That was the exact plan, yeah. And six months out there, I kind of moved on a whim. I’m born and raised in New York, so I never had a driver’s license, and this was pre-Uber, so I had to bike everywhere.
Debbie Millman:
You failed three times.
Nicolas Heller:
I failed my test three times.
Debbie Millman:
Do you have a license now?
Nicolas Heller:
I do, yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Finally.
Nicolas Heller:
I got it two years ago.
Steven Heller:
And he drives me around now.
Nicolas Heller:
But yeah, I moved out there and it was just like a rude awakening that I wasn’t going to make it as a music video director, and I came back to New York.
Debbie Millman:
Well, after I think six months?
Nicolas Heller:
Six months.
Debbie Millman:
Six months you realized it wasn’t working out, and at this time in your life you felt totally defeated.
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
You decided to come back to New York. You moved back in with your folks whose big shoes you didn’t think you would ever be able to fill.
Steve, what was that like for you at that time to see Nick struggling? How did you think you could best help him at that point?
Steven Heller:
Well, first of all, I was glad to see him back. When he left for LA, I cried. It was very sad seeing that empty room and Louise wouldn’t let me put my stuff in it.
Debbie Millman:
Why not?
Steven Heller:
Because it was sprawled all over the house anyway, but I actually felt that he would find his way, that he had this passion and I thought of myself at his … Not at his age, but when I felt lost and something comes up. You just grasp onto the fates and lean into them, so I felt he would find something and he did. We both felt if we tried to help him out, that wouldn’t be helping him.
Debbie Millman:
That must’ve taken a lot of restraint.
Steven Heller:
Well, Louise was more motherly than I was fatherly.
Debbie Millman:
What do you mean?
Steven Heller:
She wanted to get him in a place where he’d be happy, and I was content to watch him try to do that knowing that he would.
Debbie Millman:
We talk so much or hear so much now, certainly if you read New York Magazine about nepo babies or nepo babies, but Nick, you seem to have always had a very clear desire to make it on your own and not follow in the big shoes that you said you would need to fill to be even remotely as successful as either of your parents.
When you came back to New York, what were you envisioning your life could be and how were you getting through that struggle? How were you handling it emotionally?
Nicolas Heller:
So the one time I actually looked at one of his books was when I was in LA and I was contemplating like I’m not going to make it as a filmmaker like maybe I should try my hand at design. It’s like in my blood. So I took a few … Flipped through a few pages and I was like ah, this is not for me. But no, I came back and …
Debbie Millman:
Really gave it a robust try.
Nicolas Heller:
He uses big words. But yeah, I came back to New York and I was just … Honestly, I didn’t know what I was going to do. I could never see myself working like a real job. The only real job I had was at that movie rental store where they fired me and I quote, “Because he has ADD.” But then I guilt tripped him into giving me a job where I was cleaning DVDs in the back room, but that’s another story.
Debbie Millman:
That sounds like an interesting one.
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, so I didn’t know what I was going to do and then it all kind of came to me one day when I was just hanging out in Union Square Park and kind of contemplating my next move and saw this New York City street character who I’d seen all throughout high school and always wanted to talk to, but was kind of too shy up until that point. But I used that low point in my life as an opportunity to talk to him. We ended up walking around the city together and then I asked if I could make a documentary on him.
Debbie Millman:
And that was the six foot seven inch Jew who freestyle raps for you.
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah, yeah.
Debbie Millman:
So how did you do that? How did you approach … First of all, how did you find the courage to do that when you were feeling so introverted and defeated?
Nicolas Heller:
I just forced myself because I was like I literally have nothing else going for me right now like I might as well just get out of my comfort zone and speak to someone who I might be able to do something with. And actually, that wasn’t my intention to do a documentary with this guy right away. I just kind of wanted to like … I don’t know. I just had nothing else to lose so I was just like let’s see if this guy is responsive to me and he was. I asked him if I could make a documentary. I’d never made one before. He said yes, and then that led to 16 other short slice of life, day in the life documentaries on New York City characters.
Debbie Millman:
You said that this was an interesting turning point to New York wherein a lot of the folks were leaving or dying or just were fed up with being struggling artists, so they left. Did you want to preserve their legacies? What was it that attracted you to this specific group of people?
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah, it was a mixture of their legacies, but also that type of New York City character. Te’Devan, the six foot seven Jew was just like a one of a kind New York City character who would walk around with this 10 pound sign that says, “The six foot seven Jew will freestyle rap for you.” And he would just go up to people and they would have him freestyle rap, and like there’s no one else like that in New York. And at the time I was like I don’t know how long a person like this can last in New York, so I just wanted to preserve his legacy, but also preserve the legacy of those types of New Yorkers.
Debbie Millman:
Steve, in many ways, this reminds me of the work you’ve been doing with your writing, ensuring that design history is preserved and legacies are made aware of. And I was wondering if you both felt that similarity and the very different, but sort of another eerie connection in the work that you do?
Steven Heller:
When I think about it, I see the connections that we have. I didn’t share all that much work, I don’t think, when you were growing up. I would leave the house around five in the morning and see Nick At Nite, the network, not the boy, and I saw that he was doing what I would’ve wanted to do.
Debbie Millman:
What do you mean?
Steven Heller:
Well, I always wanted to make films and I got sidetracked by cartooning and design, and I figured at some point maybe I would. I was Art Director for Global Village, which was the first video documentary film center in New York. And I was doing books on New York, so there was a connection between us there. And today I actually can say I’ll never make a movie, but I’ll live vicariously off of what Nick does. So in a selfish way, he’s extending what my wish was.
Debbie Millman:
Nick, did you know that your dad wanted to make films?
Nicolas Heller:
Well, I know that he had a dream of making a film about an all girls …
Steven Heller:
Girls in the band.
Nicolas Heller:
Oh, yeah.
Steven Heller:
It was about girls who marched in marching bands all over America.
Debbie Millman:
Why that particular topic, Steve? I mean, that’s really niche.
Steven Heller:
I just thought it was cute and I was thinking of something that nobody else was doing. There might’ve been a reason for it.
Debbie Millman:
Nick, ever think you’ll pick up that mantle?
Nicolas Heller:
Who knows? It sounds interesting now that you say it like that in front of all these people.
Debbie Millman:
I do need to tell you at this moment, and you don’t know this about me, Steve, I was in my high school marching band as a baton twirler.
Steven Heller:
I’ve seen the photographs.
Debbie Millman:
No, you have not. There are none that exist.
Steven Heller:
I saw a photograph of you in a very, very baton-ish dress.
Debbie Millman:
Really? Somebody’s been doing his own research, I see.
Nick, from there, from making these short films, your career has been a hockey stick straight to the stars. Your social media following has grown to over two million followers as people have begun discovering your films. You were commissioned to make films for TED and the MTA and commercials for the Knicks and Nike. You had a short film titled Out of Order premier last year at the Tribeca Film Festival, which really has one of the greatest lines of all time, “You have dookie on your pants.”
Steven Heller:
Say it in dialect.
Debbie Millman:
You have dookie on your pants.
When Nick did his New Yorker accent contest, I actually wrote him and said, “I think I can win this. Just so you know. I think I can win.” But I didn’t. How did you get the title ‘the Unofficial Talent Scout of New York’?
Nicolas Heller:
I gave it to myself. I didn’t want to call myself the official talent scout because I felt like that sounded a little narcissistic, so I gave unofficial. It’s got a good ring to it.
Debbie Millman:
So what do you see your role in making these films as?
Nicolas Heller:
I mean, the unofficial talent … So talent to me is it’s not just someone who can juggle or someone who can sing, it’s just one of a kind personality. Going back to Te’Devan, who was the star of my first short, he’s just a one of a kind character. He is super unique. There’s never going to be anyone else like him. So to me, he’s talent. And my Instagram page is just kind of like a Rolodex of all of these talented individuals that I’ve crossed paths with over the year.
Debbie Millman:
And they’re almost like your main set of characters now.
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
That you see them in numerous places pop up.
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah. Yeah, I’m sure. Those are just two commercials that I’ve made, but I try to feature them in a lot of my work. There are a lot of people in the first spot that you’d see in the second spot. So yeah, I just like kind of creating this little world within this big city.
Debbie Millman:
How do you manage to find the moments that you post on your Instagram, which seem like they would be enormously difficult to art direct or orchestrate, but you seem to just find them.
Nicolas Heller:
I don’t know. You got to ask the universe.
Debbie Millman:
Okay.
Nicolas Heller:
It just like kind of … I don’t know. A lot of people like whenever I’m walking with somebody and something kind of outlandish happens, they’re like why does this always happen when I’m with you? I don’t know if it’s because I’m outside a lot or there is like a magnet that I have, but I don’t know. It’s just …
Steven Heller:
I would say he is determined. We were walking through Koreatown and he says to me as we’re having an in-depth conversation about chewing gum. “Wait here. Stop. Just wait.” And I see him pull his camera out of his pocket and run after this mother and child, and he just spends half the block shooting them. Then he comes back, “I’m done.” And that’s it.
Debbie Millman:
And then you went back to the chewing gum conversation?
Steven Heller:
Yes.
Debbie Millman:
I’ve often thought almost the same thing about you, Steve, in that you write every single day. Steve has a column on printmag.com called The Daily Heller, which is in fact The Daily Heller. He writes every single day. And again, another commonality, you both see your world through this lens of expression. But one of the other things that I thought was so interesting about both of you is how removed you both are individually from the work that you produce. So you both focus almost solely on your subjects and not yourselves. Steve, in all of your 200 plus books, only one is a memoir. Nick, you’re never in the spotlight in your films and even have a mask covering most of your face on the photo of your bio page on your website. So this is contrary to the way that a lot of people work these days. Can you both talk about the decision to always focus the spotlight on others?
Nicolas Heller:
Well, we’re just not as interesting.
Debbie Millman:
Speak for yourself, first of all.
Nicolas Heller:
No, I’m saying as a …
Debbie Millman:
He’s really interesting.
Nicolas Heller:
No, no, you’re right.
Steven Heller:
No, but I agree with him. He’s not that interesting.
Debbie Millman:
I see Louise protesting.
Nicolas Heller:
Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I’m just like … If you were to go to my Instagram and see all the amazing people I feature on there, I’m not as exciting as they are.
Debbie Millman:
Do you really believe that?
Nicolas Heller:
No. Well, yeah. No, yeah.
Steven Heller:
Journalists, and I call what he does journalism and I call what I do sometimes journalism, are supposed to be reporters and recorders, and not be the story itself. I’m a little different. I did do a memoir, which the first chapter is me, me, me, me, me.
Debbie Millman:
That’s literally the title of the chapter.
Steven Heller:
And I do include myself in pieces now because sometimes objectivity is just not appropriate, but I’m trying to work on part two of the memoir and I just can’t come up with a good hook and I’m not the hook, so it has to be a memoir of somebody else where I just happen to be standing alongside like Robin and Batman.
Debbie Millman:
I think there might be a collaboration that could happen here.
Steve, during COVID, you helped create and curate a Times Square public service campaign about being alone together, and Nick, you used your filmmaking skills to help businesses actually stay in business. For example, you worked with Henry Yao, the owner of a mom and pop shop on the Lower East Side, and you posted about how Yao was behind on his rent and directed followers to a custom launched GoFundMe, which after you posted it quickly made its goal.
And there was an interesting piece about this story on the shopkeepers about your work and talked about a project called National Assignment, and this was developed from one of your Instagram posts and it’s designed to give university students real life assignments to help struggling businesses by assisting them with social media, e-commerce, and more. And this felt to me like sort of one of the highest purposes that design can have, to help others survive and thrive and really fulfill their purpose. What advice might you have for anyone inspired by this type of work that you’re doing so that they could potentially replicate what you’re doing for others?
Nicolas Heller:
Well, specifically for businesses or just in general?
Debbie Millman:
Just in general.
Nicolas Heller:
I think if you have a set of skills that you can use to help others, do it. See who needs the help, and like that’s kind of what I like to do a lot on Instagram is I have a lot of friends who are business owners and New Yorkers who might need a little bit of help, and I’ll often kind of just see if they need anything from me because maybe I physically can’t help them, but I have a following of people who would be happy to help them. Yeah, whatever your skillset is, whatever you have sort of access to, just you can offer it up and if they want accept it, they’ll accept it. If not, they won’t.
Steven Heller:
By the way, this came out of nowhere, Louise and I had no idea that he was doing this.
Debbie Millman:
So you keep secrets from your parents.
Steven Heller:
We keep track of Nick through Instagram and Vimeo and the like, but the kinds of things that he did during COVID especially were just so surprising to us that we’d look at each other and say, “We made that?” And one day something came in the mail and it was a medal from President Biden.
Debbie Millman:
I know. A presidential medal at your age.
Steven Heller:
Fortunately, it wasn’t a few years before.
Debbie Millman:
Yes, and we’ll just leave it at that.
I have two more quick questions before we end. Nick, I know you have a guide to New York coming out in 2024. Steve, you have at least three books coming out next year. Can you tell us a little bit about your upcoming books?
Steven Heller:
Well, I actually don’t have three books coming out next year, I decided to cut back.
Debbie Millman:
So two?
Steven Heller:
Two.
Debbie Millman:
Slacker.
Steven Heller:
One just came out that I did with Seymour Quast, who was 92 and just won the National Design Award.
Debbie Millman:
Yay, Seymour.
Steven Heller:
And it’s called Hell. And it was Seymour’s idea that I was rejected because I thought I lived enough hell in my city travels, but it turns out to be one of the best books he’s ever done and one of the most fun books I ever had finding 88 hells to write about. Hell is a very popular place. And another book that’s coming out shortly is on Leo Lionni, so we go from hell to …
Debbie Millman:
Heaven.
Steven Heller:
A great designer and children’s illustrator, painter, and sculptor who Louise and I befriended in the latter part of his life, and it’s a show at the Norman Rockwell Museum opening November 18th. And I’m doing it with Leonard Marcus, the children’s book historian, who’s handling the children’s books, and Annie Lionni, his granddaughter, who handles all of the flame work, all of his artifacts. And it’s just a joy because at an AIGA conference, the first one in Boston, I gave the speech that introduced Leone to getting his medal, and I was terrified. And when it was over, Massimo Vignelli got up on stage and their Italian connection, even though Leo was Dutch, came through in the most warm-hearted, beautiful, loving way that I felt like had I missed that occasion, I would’ve missed something very big in my life.
Debbie Millman:
Nick, what about you? Tell us about your book.
Nicolas Heller:
I have a guide to New York coming out. It’s like a shopping and food guide that I’ve been working on for like two years now. It’s going to come out next year.
Debbie Millman:
Steve, will you read it?
Steven Heller:
Of course not.
Debbie Millman:
Speaking of warm-hearted, please indulge me in a really sappy final question only because I really want to know the answer. What is the one thing that you are most proud of in each other?
Steven Heller:
Well, for me that’s easy. Whenever you say he’s a good kid, it either is one of those rote things you say and you can’t really pinpoint it, or it’s something truly from the heart and somewhat surprising. And Nick is a very warm, giving, generous person, and I felt that the minute I saw a series of his that is hard to find now called The Queens of Kings about female impersonators in Brooklyn, and he got right to their humanity. And when you think about what goes on in this country about gender discrimination and sexual prejudices, this series just cuts right through all of that and it pervades all of his work. So in addition to just being proud of him for being, that’s the one thing that stays in my mind and I tell people whenever I have a chance and whenever there’s a lull in the conversation.
Debbie Millman:
As you should, yes.
Nicolas Heller:
And I’m proud of … I mean, there’s a lot to be proud of, but I’m most proud of his hustle. I feel like I kind of got that from him. He’s always working. It’s hard to keep up with everything he’s doing, and it’s inspiring to me, and I’m very proud of him for just continuing with all his hard work.
Steven Heller:
What about my singing?
Nicolas Heller:
His singing is really good too.
Steven Heller:
Headgear.
Nicolas Heller:
Proud of that.
Debbie Millman:
Nicholas Heller, Steven Heller, thank you for making so much work that matters. Thank you for making the world a more beautiful place. Nick Heller. Steven Heller.
Design Matters is produced for the Ted Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Master’s in Branding Program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest running branding program in the world. The Editor in Chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Weiland [inaudible 00:37:10].